The Irish question

It is strange how leave voters do see every other country as 'making things difficult' for the UK while we are 'fighting to make Britain great again' Dear me, it is strange that they don't see that we have actually put all these countries in a position where they have to protect themselves against what we are doing and, if we hadn't, they wouldn't waste time and money on us.

I think most of us do realise that GG, but are fed up with all the filibustering. Unless we get down to some proper negotiating and stop all the prevarication and posturing we're going out cold. With nothing. And giving nothing.
It's not just the UK which will suffer, in fact we'll probably slump a bit, sulk a bit, then get things together. It's the Eastern European countries which will suffer most from us leaving without any agreement or further payments. In the end Germany and the Western States will be just fine, as will we. So, yes we do want the negotiators to stop making things difficult and start being just a bit constructive.

The British position on this is:

The UK must reach an agreement with the EU in order to ensure that the Irish side of the land border, which is subject to relevant EU regulations, is also as seamless and frictionless as possible. The nature of the border clearly means that we must aim for an agreed, reciprocal solution. As Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, has said – the solution for the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland cannot “be based on a precedent”. While agreeing that the solution for Northern Ireland cannot be based on any previous precedent, the UK also notes that there are a number of examples of where the EU has set aside the normal regulations and codes set out in EU law in order to recognise the circumstances of certain border areas.

Devising a way forward on the Irish side of the land border will also require a flexible and imaginative approach that goes beyond current EU frameworks to achieve this.

So if all other countries are prevaricating what would you call this? Ireland (this thread is about Ireland) has every right to use their veto if they do not get what they want. We have just used the biggest veto in the history to get what less than half our population have said they want so why shouldn't everyone else look after themselves as the Brexiteers have done?

in fact we'll probably slump a bit, sulk a bit, then get things together.

This is the bit which very few Leavers seem to have lofully comprehended. If we leave without a deal it will be a far bigger catastrophe than leaving with a poor deal. It won't be a 'bit of hardship', it'll be no planes flying, huge queues at borders, food shortages, WTO rules (which are not at all good and the only country which trades wholly under WTO is a very poor slave economy), no radiotherapy for cancer patients, no exports to the EU (our biggest market) as the regulatory framework under which there is free movement of goods throughout the EU would immediately cease to apply etc. etc. etc. All this would happen because there are no contingency plans in place for it (if there were then 'business' wouldn't be panicking so badly and demanding clarity fron the government.)

This isn't the dead easy 'leaving a club' analogy which Leavers have been blithely fed and which most seem to have uncrtically fallen for. This is untangling 40+ years of regulatory agreement, of trade agreements wholly and legally based on that regulatory agreement. This is the stuff that EU law experts like Michael Duggan was telling us about pre referendum and which was pooh poohed as project fear (or self interest!)

The ever optimistic lemon points out that Leave voters did include higher educated people but I'll point out, yet again, that there were fewer of them. Most of the more highly educated voters voted Remain.
And I think she should read Richard North's blog...

www.eureferendum.com/archive.aspx

'lofully'
Fat fingers and a tablet 'touch' keyboard. And that was after editing

I think this article illustrates the point I'm trying to make; that understanding of the complexities of Brexit is extremely poor.

www.irishtimes.com/opinion/kathy-sheridan-why-is-british-public-so-ignorant-on-brexit-1.3308465?mode=amp

GGmk2 - you and Maisie express so well all the things I feel and fear about leaving the EU.

Oh dear, looks like we’re stuck then. We might as well give in now and realise that we’re heading towards being a small part of a new nation, a bit like Catalonia. I suppose I’m just not of the right mind set to be ready for that and I fear I never will be.

'So, yes we do want the negotiators to stop making things difficult and start being just a bit constructive'. No; I think they're just struggling to make our negotiators [I use that term loosely] understand what our obligations are and how complex the issue is for everyone.

We might as well give in now and realise that we’re heading towards being a small part of a new nation

That is Leavers' 'Project Fear', too.

Particularly those who still haven't managed to get over WW1 & WW11.

I don't think I want to be part of that new nation ...

Other people I read do that for me too Smithy. How sad though that we are in this position and see this upheaval for our country, our children and out grandchildren based, basically, on lies and an ignorance of our democratic process.

You've heard it too Maizie! I have mentioned before that I 'watch' another forum which is all older people and the men in particular, when you read the vocabulary they use, are fighting a war they were too young to be involved in.

That is partly where the xenophobia comes from. Equally the idea that this country is always, in all ways better than any other, (except where there are immigrants) and can do more and better than any other country, as long as we don't give people benefits unless they prove themselves worthy and are preferably starving at the time (just as people did during and before the war apparently).

BUT ... I have just seen a post from one of the grumpy old Brexiteer's saying we need to understand what this is going to do to our children's children. A bit late but perhaps some thinking is beginning to be done.

This is one of the political threads where I lurk rather than posting a lot, because the unpleasantness can be so off-putting. For example, nigglynellie's description of Scotland and NI as 'baggage' - and presumably Wales too. Scotland voted 62% for Remain, nn, and some of us see the Little Englander Brexiteers as 'baggage'. This 'baggage' is slowing our economy and making us part of a laughing-stock to other countries. I am very sorry for our English Remainer friends, who don't have even the possibility of a breakaway, such as we have, although GGMk2 is not alone in wondering about the North of England...

As usual, no Brexiteer has come up with a list of advantages we are going to get from this shambolic Brexit, should it happen. I'm living in hope that it doesn't.

What a rant from you MaizieD

We are nothing like Catalonia nfK so don’t trouble yourself on that score.

Never any danger of a rant from you lemon

True!

maryeliza

But I do think poor lemon has problems with English word meanings from time to time. A 'rant' is usually emotional and light on fact...

Yes maizieD so it was a rant from you then.

You are all getting so over excited and emotional about the Irish border question, as if you yourselves are required to come up with the answers.

Well, someone has to come up with an answer; the government clearly don't have one . Buy, hey, it'll all sort itself out won't it...

Yes, somebody has to Tegan2 but it won’t be anybody on GN, it will be those in government who do, it isn’t going to be on the back burner to sort itself out.The government has to negotiate this with Eire and NI and the EU, it’s tricky no doubt about it, but it will be arranged.

Don't the people in government represent what we want or are we not in a democracy? I thought the whole point of leaving the EU was to have control over what happens not allow a group of people to do whatever they like regardless of how we feel/what we believe?

Did you see Duncan being made mincemeat of today- he clearly has NOT got a clue and used the word 'we hope' about 5 times in a few minutes

Maizie - a good post (rant). My thoughts and feelings too.
What most people don't realise is that before we joined the EU there was a long debate in Parliament, more than a week, where both parties acknowledged that by joining, the UK. would lose some of her sovereignity. The general population were informed of it all.
In the years following, we signed various treaties and trade deals entangling ourselves even more in obligations and financial duties to the EU.
All this was completely ignored in the introduction to the 2015 referendum.
Why?