The Irish question

We haven't got the systems right in over ten years. That's what I mean.

But they are totally different problems and implementations, from a systems perspective. It's like saying you can't cook a stew because your neighbour is useless at football.

I think all our large ports might disagree with you.

Well, funnily enough, one of our largest ports paid for video advertising at the tory party conference pointing out the effect of a physical processing of incoming and outgoing lorries (17 mile tailbacks within a short period of time). They weren't behaving as though they had advanced electronic systems in place.

For those who are going on about the movement of people. The essential problem with the NI/ROI border isn't the movement of people, it's the movement of goods, People are always going to be easier.

(And when, BTW, do the e-gates at an airport ever actually work?)

People who are serially incompetent have a greater chance of continuing to be incompetent and you can't get much more incompetent than a Tory government.

Luckily, the Tory government didn't design a digitally-enabled global supply chain.
So much of the technology is already there for the movement of goods - it's just a case of exploiting the data that's already there to deliver the capability.

How much money have we wasted on those electronic systems?

£26bn-1871967.html
£26 billion

Plus I am sure there has been much waste since then too, perhaps not on the same scale.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labours-computer-blunders-cost-16326bn-1871967.html

Frightening isn't it!

Primrose. Would you like to share the source of your certainty about the technology being in place and usable?

I know it's on a different scale, but a few years ago there were ticket barriers at Durham station.
Last year they were always left open and a man chacked your ticket as you walked through.
This year, they disappeared altogether. Obviously not worth it.

However, Durham station is not really bothered about smuggling. The Irish border is, as is the Tunnel into and out of England.

That was in 2010, Jalima.
I wonder how much more has been wasted since then.

How much on Universal credit?

"The overall cost of Iain Duncan Smith’s key welfare scheme appears to have risen by £3bn to £15.8bn in two years, according to an official report that shows several other significant government programmes are also in danger of collapsing.

Universal credit, the troubled programme that plans to roll six welfare benefits into one payment, has also suffered a further year’s delay and will not be fully implemented until 2020. "

It was supposed to be £18.5 billion in 2020, and it reached that in 2015, just halfway there.

This might affect the Irish border as well.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-europol-michel-barnier-speech-kicked-out-european-police-cooperation-eu-benefits-amber-rudd-a8082081.html

Well, you did want your sovereignty.

I suppose we're all getting a bit premature about the Irish border anyway, we could end up with a comfortable trade agreement and no problem at all. So much depends on the trade agreement.

And I assume Maisie that the port which did the video and had the 17 mile tail back was Dover? Is that why the Irish are so agitated - they think there will be an influx of illegal immigrants streaming through Cork and rushing to our border?

Why are the Leavers on this thread missing/ignoring the point?
The movement of people isn't such a problem with the NI border.
The movement of goods is.

And I'm very much afraid that Primrose's High Tech solution may just turn out to be another unicorn.

Answering my own question. Is it that Leavers are so obssessed with illegal (or, indeed, any sort of) immigration that they can only conceive of border controls being controls of people?

Big Sigh! Goods come into Southampton, Felixstowe, etc with no problem and ships unload and turn around at speed because it is all done electronically. Number plate recognition is already in use in other areas. The only big problem at present is at Dover where immigrants try to cross illegally. If a good trade agreement is reached there will be no need of border controls in Ireland except spot checks in case of illegal immigration which is highly unlikely to happen via that route.

I know that some of you think we should let in anyone who wants to come, but that just doesn’t work in practice. It’s not fair on those already here and in need. We can’t build enough homes fast enough or feed those in need fast enough now without taking everyone who wants to come.

Shouldn’t have posted that. I shall now be shot down in belittling flames again with lots of links from Durhamjen contradicting me and proving how wrong I am.

Nfk - won't shoot - I promise.

But how on earth would number plate recognition stop illegal immigration and drugs smuggling, etc?

If Calais stops doing all the checks they do to stop immigrants from crossing to UK - who on earth will do it? Have you been to Calais recently- both Tunnel and ferry???

And do you really think that illegal immigrants- who have travelled 1000s of miles in the worst possible conditions- will not quickly be prepared to trave just a bit further to other ports?

All countries attempt to control illegal immigrants. The French authorities currently help us with their measures in Calais. We don't know whether they would bother if brexit happens.

Legal immigrants, able to enter from other EU countries, are a different matter. Many must have voted Leave to prevent all these Romanians, Bulgarians, etc getting into the UK.

How does that happen if we are out of the EU and the Republic of Ireland stays in so either passports need to be checked at the Irish border or between NI and the rest of the UK? Neither of these options is acceptable.

We could have had more control over who came to this country but the Home Secretary at the time didn't implement rules that other EU countries had. Good job she's no longer doing that job [badly] isn't?

Perhaps anyone who has not travelled to and from Calais- by ferry or Tunnel- will not be aware of the MASSIVE defences and the MASSIVE and constant policing, by the French- to stop immigrants being able to cross to UK. I have highlighted massive because it truly is. The Hôtel we stay at on the way to and from UK and France, on a very regular basis- sometimes ferry, sometimes Tunnel- is 50% used by CRS (equivalent to SAS) police from all over France too. There is NO WAY the narrow passage in Dover could accommodate those border controls (look at the geography !?!). The people of Calais cannot wait to be able to just let them through to UK and 'get rid', that is for sure.

I think the issue of how the French & UK govts chose to manage the issue of the camps at Calais will need to be solved politically, not by border control. Do you really think Macron would use thousands of displaced people as a negotiating tool for Brexit? I had a higher opinion of him.

Would people actually still want to come to the UK? The dropping pound is deterring many casual workers as its no longer worth their while.

I’ve never been through The Tunnel and haven’t been to France via Dover for donkey’s years but have crossed from local ports (Lowestoft, Ramsgate, Harwich) to Ostend, Dunkirk, Rotterdam and Amsterdam and there’s been no checks at all except to report to the harbour master. But I’m sure we were watched!