The Irish question

I don't think that the current situation is part of politics' 'normal way of working' Blinko

I don't thik the EU needs to 'punish' us as an example to the others, Nfk. Apart from the fact that this is language of the playground and we're dealing with a very grownup situation here, I haven't seen any signs that the rest of the EU countries seriously want to leave the biggest and most frictionless trading bloc in the world, because it would be economically disadvantageous, and, politically, they are sufficiently proud of their independence, nationalities and cultures to firmly knock on the head the notion of an EU Superstate.

I'm puzzled that TM went to Brussels without, it seems, the DUP being fully au fait. Makes you wonder how politics works, doesn't it?

Did anyone hear Jonathan Powell (Good Friday negotiator) on R4 Today?
He said diplomatic negotiations always depend on "constructive ambiguity" meaning it can be interpreted loosely to mean different things to different interest groups. The DUP didn't initially understand the "ambiguities" of the NI border arrangements that were almost agreed on Monday.
He says the only solution is a customs union for the whole of UK.

Don’t you !!, I’m not sure there is a single government in our past recent history that would have done it any worse.

Yes. But I fear it's what may happen. Petra's quote from the song is very appropriate. We're not going to be allowed to go any other way for fear others will want to follow.

And I don't believe the blame can all be laid at the Conservatives door. I don't think Labour would have done any better.

nkd do you understand the implication of your statement about simply walking away?!

I think it may be the only way in the end. Go out cold. It's what the EU negotiators want. They seem determined to kill the goose laying the golden egg.

Ian Duncan Smith said this morning we should just walk out and call the EU's bluff - and that the Irish conundrum will 'just sort itself out' somehow ?!?

I don't think leaving would have proved so difficult, petra if there had been a proper, carefully thought out, plan in place before A50 was invoked and the people in charge of implementing it hadn't been such hopeless incompetents*

*Surely even Leave voters can see how disasterously badly the whole process has been handled

I think the truth of the matter is that Brexiters would stand much more chance of leaving if the government had been up to it and had planned extensively by exploring all the most difficult issues of which there are thousands.

As it is we have a clueless government, who does not discuss anything at all!! What a shower.

NfkDumpling
I am reminded of the words from the song Hotel Californian: You can check out anytime you want but you can never leave.

Listening to the House of Lords debate, which was so much more informative than we ever get from the government.

Fox had produced a white paper on trade post Brexit, and all the lords were grumbling that he had said absolutely nothing of any fact. All he said was apparently wishful thinking without how he thought we would achieve this. Fox is keen however, for the U.K. to give up its present standards to realign with the US standards. What nonsensical reasoning is that?

I don't expect anything from the EU. But I had hoped for a good trade agreement and free trade would be the best obviously. But, I'm a natural pessimist. I expect things to go wrong. That's why I shall be surprised if we do actually manage to escape.

For example, the DUP is going to reduce corporation tax to 12.5% next April.
This is so it is in alignment with the Republic of Ireland.
In order for us the whole of the UK to be aligned, we will have to reduce ours to 12.5%, surely.

Those who run businesses will like it, but other taxes will have to go up to allow for it.
The rest of the UK was going to put it down to 20% next year, and 17% by 2020.

Hypocrisy of the DUP.

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/12/05/the-dup-are-only-british-when-it-suits-them/

They don't want alignment for taxes.

Nfk, the main benefit of being in the EU is free trade. Are you saying you don't expect that benefit?
If not, why ask about it?

I realise that Petra, I was being polite. Of course I wouldn’t name names either, or the worry of the rise of the far right in any particular country.

Personally I’ve never expected the benefits of staying in. As you say, why would they. Except it would be to EU benefit as well.

I’ll watch the link tomorrow.

they not the

I think it is really interesting to watch the video jura linked to if anyone still thinks we should be able to just walk away and still have the benefits. Why would the do that?

for those that didn't see it.

NfkDumpling
As much as I loathe and despise 'them', it was a brilliant stitch up, I have to give them that.
And as for one country with the support etc that's already happening.

I looked at a Schengen map today. The only countries with opt-outs were Republic of Ireland and the UK.

We have always had control of our borders.

Of course we can leave, but Brexiteers want to leave and keep all the advantages.
That's what we can't do.

Thanks for the explanations. I find it very worrying that the EU is such a web that no country can extricate itself from.

It’s supposed to be that all countries are equal, but that is becoming increasingly less so and my worry is that one country could with the support of one or two others in effect rule. And there’s no way to leave the bloc.

Thanks for the link to the video jura. Very concise and informative.