Being right more important than what's right.

I'm afraid that 'democracy' isn't just observing the result of a vote; it also allows for dissent from that result and those who are seeking to overturn the vote have a democratic right to do so. There are people who have been opposing the initial decision to remain in the EU for the past 40+ years and no-one has questioned their right to do so.

When we vote in a General Election we observe the result of the vote in that the party getting the most seats in Parliament becomes the party of government but this does not prevent the other parties seeking to overturn or amend proposed legislation if they believe that it is damaging to the country or to sections of the community that they are responsible for representing. Parliamentary procedures have evolved to allow for opposition and representation of minority views. Opposition is not treasonous; it allows for the views of all the electorate to be represented, not just those of the people who voted for the governing party. Nor does the presence of a party in government prevent parties using the time between GEs in seeking to persuade people that the government is wrong and that they offer better solutions. Democracy is a living, ongoing process.

So, while we have a government which has 'respected' the result of the referendum, members of the sovereign parliament are at liberty to question every aspect of the way that the government implements it and a duty to maintain the sovereignty of parliament. 'The people' are sovereign by way of their representatives in parliament, representatives who have a duty to have regard to the good of the country as a whole; not just the wishes of part of their constituents.

The 'government' is the representative of the Crown in parliament but it is constrained by the exercise of parliament's sovereign power. We fought a Civil War to establish this.

If you think of 'the government' as actually being a monarch who wants to do exactly as they please and parliament as the representative body of the people which is preventing them doing something harmful to the interests of the country does it make it any easier to understand? The result of the Civil war was to curb the arbitrary power of the monarch and to establish that 'the people', through parliament, had a voice in the governing of the country.

At the moment, some of 'the people' seem to think that parliament is no longer the sovereign body in this country and that MPs have to obey them. This is not so. MPs have to have regard to what they say but they also have to have regard to those who don't agree with 'the people'. If it is any other way it would be a complete Revolution and totally destroy the constitution of the UK. And, by God, I fear Revolution far more than I fear Brexit. I want to exercise my democratic right to oppose and to voice my opposition. And no revolution that I've ever studied has allowed that.

Paddyann, couldn't the gc parents take them somewhere. Where do you think is best? What European country is do much better than ours? I travel extensively and I couldn't tell you one country without problems. Can you name just one please. I think the bigoted people are those cannot see a democracy as getting the most votes, to say you could have got more if people had got out of bed to vote, doesn't really cut it. Carry on as they are and before too long we will have given away our democratic rights. Perhaps paying people to ensure the votes go the way minorities want it? That's what happens when you don't respect the ballot box, just because it doesn't go your way. Another two words Sour Grapes trips off the tongue.

More insults - now according to varian I'm "gullible". However, I do realise that there are and always have been vested interests - not least all the corporate lobbyists in Brussels.

On the advisory nature of the referendum - MPs voted in Parliament to have the referendum and delegated the Brexit decision to the voters, so they have no right to try to stop it now. The Government advocated a Remain vote and in its leaflet to all households in the UK it was clearly stated:
"This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide."

Good post, MaizieD. If, as I hope, the Tory party loses the next general election, does anyone seriously think that they will say 'Oh well, it's the will of the people' and stop trying to work to get what they think is right for the country to come to pass? I observe the result of the referendum but I do not accept that it is the final word, and along with many other people, I hope for it to be reversed in due course.

^The Government advocated a Remain vote and in its leaflet to all households in the UK it was clearly stated:
"This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide."^

Would you find and show me in Hansard where parliament approved that statement?

Because it seems to me that that is an example of the government exercising arbitrary power without the approval of parliament; parliament voted for an advisory referendum, not, as far as I am aware, a binding one.

Though I'm willing to be proved wrong.

dbDB77 I have not said that you personally were gullible, but there is absolutely no doubt that a lot of the readers of the right wing gutter press were. They did as they were told by the foreign and tax exile owners of the Sun, Daily Mail etc.

Not every leaver comes into this category, but enough to make a difference to the result. You probably have a double first from Cambridge and totally understood all the complexities of the question, but if, so you are in a tiny minorities of brexit voters.

‘ Not every leaver comes into this category’ etc Varian
Seventeen and a half million! There is a happy medium between having a double first from Oxbridge and the type of Leaver that you paint you know.

Give up this obsession with converting Leave voters ( too late!) and you may not end up starting rows at funerals.

I am astonished at the language used in every thread about the EU,it is so spiteful.

Yes it is an emotive subject, no the EU isn't Camelot, vested interests can only have influenced opinion marginally as most people have their lived experience as a guide.

Other people who do not share your view also care about the future for their childen and grandchildren. Everyone else is not a moron.

No body knows what the future holds really, so getting exorcised about it to the point where you become insulting, while sober (probably) and the week before Christmas...........what a shame.

Nothing stays the same in life, who knows how this will pan out, the general tone of language and thought is just disappointing. Thoughts are material forces words can be hurtful. We are all old, we should know better.

NUMBERS
Why is a vote of 51-49% in Parliament a 'narrow result'
and a vote of 51-49% for Brexit a 'resounding victory'?

Totally agree with your PST Lucklegs

That should have read post!

It's been a total dogs dinner from the beginning

What a strange thread to start on the news and politics forum - saying you don't watch the news any more because all the arguments about Brexit are dreadful.

If you can't watch the news any more because of arguments, why start a thread that you know is going to be just as argumentative?

I am disgusted by the tone of some of these comments on here, its a disgrace, I know that many of you have not joined in, but there are some of you who need to mind your manners, I would have hoped that Gransnet posters would show some maturity and resort to playground insults!

Sorry, not resort to playground insults

Well said dbD!

Lol if remoaners like me didn't remoan there would be a huge silent elephant in the room. EU topic has always been hugely divisive whether going in, staying in, coming out or staying out it's always been a HOT topic and probably always will be. Best just to not take it personally or get annoyed.

^ vested interests can only have influenced opinion marginally as most people have their lived experience as a guide.^

That's a problematic statement in itself, radicalnan. Whenever a Leaver is asked what the EU has done to harm them they don't have an answer. It's puzzling as to where this deep and visceral hatred for an institution which has never harmed them has come from.

MOnica.
Small in your eyes but never the less enough.
That is what mattered.

BTW I'm still eagerly awaiting the evidence that our sovereign parliament approved the promise in the government Remain leaflet to 'implement what you decide'.

paddyann

Using pejorative language to try to demean and belittle others quite often rebounds on the poster and his/her credibility.
We are the second largest net payer into the EU and for what precisely? We have very little say over how that money is spent and as for their plans for “ever closer union” thanks but no thanks. I prefer our country, our laws and perhaps using the money we shovel into the EU to educate our children properly so that they can spell bigoted for example.
I am not opposed to immigration as we will always need immigrants – let’s face it, we always have, but freedom of movement is being abused. We do not need Eastern European thieves/rapists/sheep rustlers etc and we do need to be able to remove these people asap once they offend. Freedom of movement makes that difficult.
The entire EU edifice is based on what Germany wants. Sadly what Germany wants, Germany will have, with the other countries just being given enough of a bribe to assure Qualified Majority Voting in Germany’s favour.
Yours sincerely
Brain dead bigot
BA (Hons)
Former member of Gransnet

Sorry, MinniesMum, but using pejorative language like that will rebound on the poster and her credibility.
Did you not realise that?

As a Scot, living in Scotland, I'd just like to point out that our referendum vote showed a higher percentage against Brexit than the UK vote in favour (of Brexit).

Brexit, like Mr Trump's presidency, seems to have legitimised nastiness.......... on both sides......as illustrated on this thread. This does not bode well for the future of our children or the human race in general.

Where did MinniesMum use pejorative language?