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Interesting? Frightening?

(114 Posts)
Granny23 Wed 27-Dec-17 09:19:11

Having suffered a visit to our small local town in Central Scotland, from the EDL to protest that 'our' Syrian Refugees had been given brand new houses by the Council, followed by a major Orange Lodge march/parade which shut down the whole town for a whole day, this 'take' on the far right really resonates. Ethnic Nationalism as opposed to the civic Nationalism of the SNP?

TerriBull Mon 01-Jan-18 12:40:31

"Slavery wasn't only black and it isn't only black even now" Yes it's little known fact that Arab raiding ships took people from coastal areas around western England and parts of France. I read it is sad fact is that we now have more slaves of all colours and creeds, conducted in a very covert way. It made my blood run cold to hear of the way young black African men on their way to Europe were being sold in slave markets in Libya very recently.

margrete Mon 01-Jan-18 12:26:44

Granny23 your post of Saturday evening.

I've been a long-time supporter of the Campaign for an English Parliament. I don't agree with the idea of 'regions' if that means splitting up my country - England - into chunks. Over recent years I've been involved in a number of groups trying to preserve our heritage, our history i.e. it did not start with the battle of Hastings and we had many kings before William. So-named Edward I was no such thing - there were several kings named Edward before him.

Our patron saint should be Edmund, King Martyr of East Anglia, and our flag should be that of the White Dragon. If you ever go to Battle Abbey on the commemoration day of that battle, you'll see that flag and you'll hear Old English poetry read out.

I don't agree with all the so-called 'national traditions', for example I'm absolutely opposed to hunting of wild animals with dogs, which will be going on today, New Year's Day, even though it has been illegal since 2004.

I don't endorse or support racism, but I don't see the point of things like Black History month - I'd rather see our history better taught. Slavery wasn't only black and it isn't only black even now.

You wrote -My dream is to see all 4 Countries governing themselves, joining together, by mutual consent as equal partners, in various associations where this is of benefit to all, but free to 'do their own thing' when this is in the best interests of the people. `-

Couldn't agree more.

Granny23 Sun 31-Dec-17 16:46:52

POGS I did not write the article from the Independent The author was an Irishman, hence the exploration of the parallels between the situation of Ireland pre and post Independence and the current situation in the rest of the British Isles. I found it Interesting (especially the comments following the article) but also kind of Frightening as surely none of us want to return to the horrors of the Irish Troubles. I expected to provoke a discussion about the difference between Civic Nationalism as espoused by the YES Movement in Scotland and the Ethnic Nationalism of the extreme right wing Groups, hence the accounts of two occasions in the past year when this type of Nationalism was displayed locally. I have nowhere blamed all English people for the offensive antics of a few (though as the article suggests their much publicised stance can easily be seen as a representative view by those outwith England) My complaint about the Orange Order (an import to Scotland from NI) stems from the swaggering attitude they adopt towards ordinary peaceable people who have no interest in their old hatreds. i.e. (and I am well aware this is just hearsay) their insistence that no one is allowed to 'Cross the March' even though it takes 45mins to an hour to pass by and their propensity to urinate all over the place, not because they are bursting because of too much beer, but deliberately to 'mark their territory'. They push the boundaries of 'right to march' to the limits and beyond.

Again I must stress I have no animosity towards the people of NI whatsoever, I consider them to be friends and neighbours. However I do abhor racism, sectarianism and bigotry and will condemn it irregardless of whence it comes.

I am sorry but I cannot understand what point you are making in your last paragraph.

POGS Sun 31-Dec-17 11:02:08


" I cannot prove that the EDL were in Alloa that day, I cannot even claim to have seen them with my own eyes "

That has at least put to bed the personal wording in your OP was nothing more than hearsay, and I dare to say tantamount to Fake News of which GN has become a platform for occassionaly, sady.

What about the link in your OP?

What were you hoping the discussion was going to be about given your OP was based on bashing the English as far as I can see. It was an article that gave a typical view of ALL the English people as being xenophobic Little Englanders without using the term, unlike some posters on GN have done in the past!

What for example does this mean from your article:

" English people often have an equally muddled or myopic vision of their own nationalism, using the terms “English” and “British” as if they were synonymous or marked a distinction of no great account. "

What would we call ourselves if not English or British?

You gave every impression until being challenged you were reporting 'facts' re the EDL, even then you carried on as though you had factual evidence. Was the hope posters would want it to be about the English, that does tie in with your linked article .

You did say in your post:

"Ethnic Nationalism as opposed to the civic Nationalism of the SNP?"

Maybe that is where you wanted the 'debate' , if that were the intention of the OP , to go as your linked article says:

"As a system of beliefs the new nationalism is much more appropriate to an ' English nation state ' than to a more diverse United Kingdom"

So my answer would be the far right from any country England , Scotland, Germany , Hungary would no doubt like a 'Nation State' but what constitutes a 'Nation State' is debatable. Are Russia and China examples of a Nation State, are communist countries an example of a 'Nation State', if so we should be as ' Interested and Frightened' of the far left as we should be of the far right.

Continuing with the linked article and Brexit. Is it your thought that those who voted Leave and were English are ALL xenophobic , that is how I read the linked article. What about those who voted Leave who were not English , the Welsh, Northern Irish, Scottish , are they ALL xenophobic too in your mind.?

It seems to me ones mans/woman's view of those who want a National Identity, National Sovereignty can be deemed as different and you are either a saint or a sinner it appears to some and I don't follow that argument.

WilmaKnickersfit Sat 30-Dec-17 23:40:27

Yes, when my Mum used to cook Christmas dinner she would use haggis as the stuffing. We go out now for Christmas dinner and if you choose the turkey, there's haggis on the plate as well as traditional stuffing. It is a nice touch.

I do love making haggis stovies though with haggis, potatoes and parsnips (DH not keen on turnip!). Now I'm looking forward to next month! tchgrin

PS I think tinned haggis is awful. It has to be the fresh kind. tchwink

Granny23 Sat 30-Dec-17 23:32:36

I must confess that although I am a very proud Scot I have never been able to eat Haggis being of an 'Offal is Awful' persuasion. However a few years ago I was introduced to Vegetarian Haggis which I thoroughly enjoy and use in Chicken Balmoral and as stuffing YUMMY.

WilmaKnickersfit Sat 30-Dec-17 22:56:02

lemongrove I've been to The Haggis Warrior twice now. Well worth the drive. tchwink

grumppa I'm not a fan of the legs, but my brother loves them. tchgrin

grumppa Sat 30-Dec-17 22:44:42

And remember, the finest haggis is taken from the meat of the downhill leg.

lemongrove Sat 30-Dec-17 21:41:47

I heard tell that once upon a time, vast herds of haggis roamed the glens, they were completely wild and considered very dangerous, when one day a brave Englishman , armed only with a few sugar lumps, enticed five of the creatures back to the village where he was staying at the Inn.The landlord there managed to tame and breed them, and the rest is history! In gratitude to the stranger , he renamed his Inn ‘The Haggis Warrior’ and there it stands to this day, a homage to a brave, if it wasn’t for this Englishman, the Scots would never have seen or eaten this magnificent pudding! ( A true story.)

WilmaKnickersfit Sat 30-Dec-17 21:15:30

Jalima I ate haggis on Christmas Eve! It was a veggie one though, so no haggis was harmed to produce a delicious meal! tchgrin

Granny23 Sat 30-Dec-17 21:04:43

Ah! Annie Consider this - Wales has become poor WITHIN the Union. Just think where it would be if the same amount had been spent on development and infrastructure as has been spent in London, the hill farms subsidy from the EU had been directed entirely to the areas for whom it was intended, the Government had invested in attracting new industry when the pits closed. Welsh peoples taxes are spent on high speed rail and motorways which will never benefit them or come near them. Same story in the North of England - the wealth created by coal and heavy industry went south and there it has remained while the so called 'Regions' are forced to plead for a fair share and are usually ignored.

Anniebach Sat 30-Dec-17 18:58:50

Fail to see how that could happen Granny23, Wales is a poor country compared to Scotland and England . If there is unemployment in the north of England there is wealth down south, unemployment is high in South Wales, North Wales couldn't keep the country going

Granny23 Sat 30-Dec-17 18:35:15

Margrete As far as I am concerned being an English Nationalist is as honourable as being a Scottish (or Welsh) Nationalist, if that means that you want what is best for your own country and ALL the people who live there i.e. Civic Nationalism. It is really sad that a very small number of thugs in balaclavas have subverted St George's flag and tarnished the concept of Englishness to the extent that people feel they need to apologise for being proud of their own Country.

My dream is to see all 4 Countries governing themselves, joining together, by mutual consent as equal partners, in various associations where this is of benefit to all, but free to 'do their own thing' when this is in the best interests of the people. `

Jalima1108 Sat 30-Dec-17 15:58:49

Wilma tchgrin

It's running away to hide before the 25th January.
and there's no escape in England or Wales as Burns Suppers seem to be becoming more popular!

lemongrove Sat 30-Dec-17 12:08:51

EDL or SDL they are both just as bad (IMHO) I don’t think they have a huge membership ( do they?) Most people are not extremists of any kind.

It does make you think if what can actually be believed doesn’t it?
granny23 trusted the words of people known to her, other people trust websites or newspapers.Even the BBC can be wrong at times as well ( Mr Lemongrove proved this the other day, about football stats, not important.)
Instead of thinking it is the truth, we need to think more along the lines of, well it could be but I shall reserve judgement!

margrete Sat 30-Dec-17 11:12:03

As I said earlier I#m an English nationalist. Not a member of the English Defence League. I used to belong to a political party, the English Democrats. Not political any longer - I realised belatedly that politics is the dirtiest game imaginable.

That said, all the English nationalist that I know of do not go demonstrating in Scotland, Wales or NI. We have enough problems of our own within our own borders.

WilmaKnickersfit Sat 30-Dec-17 01:39:53

PAX. Thank you. I felt uneasy even accessing the EDL website. Tomorrow is another day. flowers

Granny23 Sat 30-Dec-17 01:07:20

Wilma I cannot prove that the EDL were in Alloa that day, I cannot even claim to have seen them with my own eyes but was told by people I know well that they and their coach/s were there, I recollect that this was mentioned in some detail on the Alloa Advertiser's comments boards on Facebook and Twitter but these are transient, not archived. I have tried searching on both EDL and SDL pages and apart from learning that many people, posting under false names, seem to be members of both EDL & SDL, these web sites and facebook pages are abandoned then restarted on a regular basis and there is nothing that goes back to last spring.

It has occurred to me that both You and I are in danger of being notice by the powers that be, for having conducted extensive google searches about these organisations. We may well be on a list somewhere shock and who is going to believe that this was all for a thread on Gransnet?

I hope you will agree that it is time to call a truce and, given that we seem to be in agreement on the repugnant nature of these racist and fascist groups, chalk it up to experience and the extraordinary ability of these tiny groups to provoke discord and rancour among those who are basically of the same mind. PAX?

WilmaKnickersfit Sat 30-Dec-17 00:16:56

Since I posted about my thoughts growing legs, all I can picture is a haggis running around a hill. I've lost the plot.

WilmaKnickersfit Sat 30-Dec-17 00:08:52


Jalima1108 Fri 29-Dec-17 23:58:38

I am Mrs Optimistic until the middle of the night

WilmaKnickersfit Fri 29-Dec-17 23:48:31

I'm outwardly the optimistic smiley one, Mrs EverythingWillBeJustFine, but when I'm on my own the thoughts grow legs! tchblush

Jalima1108 Fri 29-Dec-17 23:35:04

I am usually 'Pollyanna' (well Pollyanna with some anxiety) but I have been feeling like that too recently Wilma.

WilmaKnickersfit Fri 29-Dec-17 23:28:45

That's the price we pay for free speech, etc. My instinct is to say ban these kinds of groups, but then the problem of where to draw the line comes up. Half these groups are underground anyway, so banning them wouldn't really achieve much. My problem is that I worry that we're always witnessing the start of the thin edge of the wedge. We're so lucky to have lived our lives without war. If you are a forces family I can't imagine what it's like to have a loved one in constant danger. One of the reasons I voted to stay in the EU was the fact that were less likely to go to war with our allies and business partners. I know others ridicule that point, but it's how I feel. For years now when a particular event happened, I've wondered if this is it? Is this how everything starts to change? I suspect if I lived in the USA (God forbid tchshock) I would turn into a prepper or a survivalist! tchgrin

Jalima1108 Fri 29-Dec-17 23:04:56

It's frightening that nothing much seems to be done, or able to be done, about them then.