NHS

In France, Germany, Switzerland, Italy - when elderly people, or people with a handicap or others recovering from a severe illness or accident- will go and recuperate and be 'rehabilitated' (physio, occupational therapy, etc) - for week or few weeks- until ready t go home with the necessary help and support. A massive part of the NHS problem now is that all those places have been cut, closed, privatised- and all ottage hospitals gone. It is massive non-sense to keep thos people in hospital- and massively cruel and uncaring to just send them home- and totally counter-productive in the long run - as they will just be back, again and again.

Our local care home has a ward dedicated to Rehabilitation. It’s taken on half the beds that were in the cottage hospital. Strangely the beds aren’t permanently full. It’s all part of a complex with a Housing with Care opposite and district nurses and physios based there too. Plus a community centre and mini buses to bring in people from the area. A forward thinking local chemist gave the land for it and it works brilliantly. This is charity based although I think the care home is part of a company. It’s not the reason we moved here but certainly a benefit!

A thought. Could some of the ambulance problem be lack of thought and people’s attitude? We live 45 minutes drive from the nearest A&E. When DH fell off a ladder and dislocated his elbow I drove him to hospital. When he had a stroke, I drove him to hospital. When our neighbour sliced his thumb half off, I drove him to hospital. It never occurred to us to wait for an ambulance. They were moveable. How many of these ambulance call outs are for people who could quite capably have been brought in by car?

I agree Nfk that ambulances should only be used in a emergency, but I consider s stroke an emergency and early paramedic treatment can be life saving or effect a better outcome.

Of course they are willing to pay a much higher rate of tax and therefore expect good value. Whereas us Brits whinge if there’s a £5 rise in council Tax

I don't think this statement is very fair OldMeg.

Council Tax is a very unfair tax. Living in a poor borough in the North East my council tax on my 2 bedroom terrace is far higher than that of a relative mansion in some rich boroughs (Kensington is a good example). Another 6% hike again on its way which we (and plenty like me) really can't afford.

Gillybob how can it be unfair to say we Brits whinge, when that’s exactly what you are doing now? Your council tax pays for your grandchildren’s eduction, among other things.

However, I was talking about income tax which goes towards funding the NHS and just using that as an example, because that is a charge fixed annually. If you can’t afford to pay Council Tax you can ask to have it spread over 12 months instead of 10

The money to pay for services have to come from somewhere, and while I’m all for raising the level for the well off especially, we all have to contribute if we fall into the tax bracket.

While I deplore this government for running the NHS, Education and Social Care into the ground I do recognise that they are tapping into the belief held by too many in this country that taxes have to be held at a low level. You do get what you pay for, and this idea that the current state of the NHS is just down to poor management is a load of bollocks, which some people are all too ready to believe.

I agree that just throwing money at it isn’t the way forward, but underfunding is at the heart of the current crisis.

The average per year from 1947 to 2010 was 4% GNP

2010| 2017 average spend 1.2%

I have not seen anyone say what the 'right' spend is for the NHS.
In England, it's £2,200 a head.
In Scotland, it's £2,500 a head. They have also had a 'winter crisis'.
In Wales, it's £2,300 a head.
In NI, it's £2,700 a head. Politicians there say the current situation in the local health care system "is not acceptable, sustainable or safe".

It seems that there's still a crisis, even if the spending is 22% higher.

How much money is needed?

YES I am complaining OldMeg (wouldn't call it whinging by any means).

For the record my DGC live in different LA than me but that is besides the point.

My complaint lies with a (financially) poor council (like mine) having to charge residents way above the national average for often much reduced services. How can it be fair that because we have a higher than average aged population (mainly ex heavy industry) that those who DO pay council tax have to pay highly inflated amounts in order to cover the shortfalls?

I am not talking about under funding either I am asking for a fair countrywide system, rather than a system where a Band A property in one (poor) LA pays more than a Band D in a far richer one.

Apologies for digression

In the case of my LA you most certainly DO NOT get what you pay for.

So cancer care being delayed because of staff shortage.

Imagine if you are a cancer sufferer!! I’d be frightened to death.

'Labour’s resolution: “That this House expresses concern at the effect on patient care of the closure of 14,000 hospital beds since 2010; records its alarm at there being vacancies for 100,000 posts across the NHS; regrets the decision of the government to reduce social care funding since 2010; notes that hospital trusts have been compelled to delay elective operations because of the government’s failure to allocate adequate resources to the NHS; condemns the privatisation of community health services and calls on the government to increase cash limits for the current year to enable hospitals to resume a full service to the public, including rescheduling elective operations, and to report to the House by oral statement and written report before 1 February 2018 on what steps it is taking to comply with this resolution.” '

Did anyone see this this afternoon?

Norfolk has three A&E hospitals. Paramedics and ambulances can be anywhere out on the road and a free one may be hours away. Quicker to drive yourself rather than face the stress of playing Russian Roulette wondering if and when help is coming. There are other small hospitals, but they can’t take emergencies. I think things have been centralised too much. So much time is wasted just driving, often having to pass the smaller hospitals to get to A&E.

And I agree Gillybob. Add to that a Band D property in a wealthy area is so much larger than one in a less well off!

Several departments in our town hospital are now “temporarily” closed . I suspect they will not re open . The next hospital is miles away and getting there for routine appointments is very difficult without a car. At the moment we still have an A&E in the town but I wonder for how much longer?

Thank you for understanding my point NfkDumpling .

I have just experienced an NHS Scotland falling apart. My own experience with lots of health issues has always been excellent.
We often end up in A&E in the middle of the night with BIL, who has multiple health problems. However, usually our experience of his care is good, not this time.

Two nights ago we phoned an ambulance, five times, nearly four hours later it arrived. We then waited in A&E for another four and a half hours before we were told that they were sending him home. This was at 4.30 in the morning. He was a very unwell man, being sick everywhere, but they insisted we take him home.
The following morning he was still being sick, SIL phoned her GP as she was extremely worried. GP came out immediately and phoned an ambulance. He was admitted to a surgical ward at at 9pm last night was still waiting to see a surgeon (still vomitting and on morphine).
I suspect there were no beds the previous night, as ambulances were stacked up outside and patients in trolleys in corridors. The poor staff looked extremely stressed.
Oh and don't mention the "time wasters" who turned up and who were being fitted in between emergencies. Talking on their phones in very loud voices , stuffing their faces and generally treating it as a social outing. Sorry about the rant!
I hope I never have to come in to that hospital as an emergency!

The trouble with time wasters is that there may possibly actually be something wrong with them and they tend to be the ones who threaten litigation at the drop of a hat and run to sympathetic newspapers (depending on the government in power at the time). They're now setting up drunk/drugged wards so perhaps there could be a similar arrangement for the walking wounded. Take them completely off to one side so student medics can practice.

I totally agree that there may be genuinely ill people, who do not look ill.
Looking at me you would never know I have serious health issues and people don't make allowances.
However, one particular group were in and out in ten minutes, still laughing and clutching their phones, thinking it was funny, as they left.

I’m sorry you took my point personally Gillybob - but look at the wider picture behind my post ie that underfunding is behind this running down of the NHS and this government is playing on the fact that nobody wants to pay more tax.

It's not the paying more (income) tax that get me OldMeg its the unfairness of how council tax bands vary so massively around the country, with residents in the biggest houses in the richest boroughs paying considerably less than those in the lowest band A properties in the poorest local authorities. How can that be fair? Anyway apologies again for digression.

We had a perfectly good walk in centre that served several towns in the Borough. It closed last year and now everyone is directed to A&E. How short sighted can anyone be?

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2018/01/11/who-says-hmrc-does-not-work-for-the-1/

HMRC got Apple to pay some tax back. Now for the rest of the 13 billion euros.
Yes, gillybob, I've never understood the sense in closing walk-in centres. Isn't that what GPs surgeries used to be in the good old days?

Just been looking at the effects of the STPs on the north east.
My area of Durham is linked with Northumberland and Tyne and Wear, and they need to save over £650 million by 2021. One of the ways they see of doing it is closing more A&Es. Doesn't sound sensible to me.

There's a meeting on at the moment to discuss closing the last walk-in centre in south east London. That means that veverybody who would have gone to it will now have to go to A&E.

A massive part of the NHS problem now is that all those places have been cut, closed, privatised- and all cottage hospitals gone.
Not all though because a relative of mine has been in one for several weeks; she went to hospital where she got two infections so was in for longer than expected and has now been in a cottage hospital (NHS) recuperating for weeks. The SS are now looking for a care home, as she doesn't need nursing now, until she is fit enough to manage at home.

I agree though, we do need far more 'cottage hospitals', convalescent type homes for people who are well enough to leave hospital but not quite fit enough to return home.

How much worse does it have to get before May or her boss Hunt will have to act? Front line senior doctors have written of their serious concerns that conditions are intolerable and patients are dying prematurely in hospital corridors. The chief exec of NHS Providers has described it as a "watershed moment". How this can be "what was planned" , it is quite mad and will turn out to be May's epitaph, along with "strong and stable".

Primrose65 Wed 10-Jan-18 16:17:54

I really cannot believe you are still trying to defend this government. The funding is only higher in cash terms.

It is time we had an hypothecated tax for the NHS and Care. We could then be told what we percentage of GDP - the common way countries look at this - we are collecting and decided whether we want more or less.