Self Indentitying Women

The protection of children and adolescents and vulnerable adults should be the priority of every political party.
Their rights should trump any minority

This doesn't mean that I don't understand that people who feel that they were born in the wrong body have immense problems to overcome.

Back to the changing rooms scenario ,am I correct in saying that on the continent or parts of it ,toilets & changing rooms are for everyone ( or in some parts the hole in the floor!).?

As I understand it Bridgeit, Lily Madigan demanded the removal of the existing Women's Officer due to what Lily considered were her transphobic views.

I have indeed used "the hole in the floor" in France, not communal behind a locked door and I remember toilets not being designated for exclusively male or female use. they tended to be a single toilet with a lock on the door. In many circumstances such as planes of course that will be the case. However, a changing rooms, particularly where total undress is taking place is somewhere where the majority do not wish to encounter the opposite sex.

Ahh thanks TerriBull, Well whilst I don’t agree with offending or offensive remarks, it doesn’t seem right that anybody should demand the sacking of another without a proper investigation, was there one.?
Equality seems to be nosediving into - I have a right to say & do what ever I like and woe betide you if you go against me. The world is going mad, we will end up in a position where people meet in secret so as not to offend anyone , it will be back to the dark ages & witch hunts!!

Is this a cat? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_Cat

Who cares? I don’t!

RosieRoe, thanks for sharing that,It makes you wonder it it is right for surgeons to do such procedures.
It use to be the case that one had to have a psychological assessment before any normalish surgeries could take place, let alone anything unusual. Where will it all end ?

Remember Rachel Dolezal, who self-identified as a black woman and in fact was white? (If fact comes into it that is) Anyway, she was ridiculed when the truth was exposed, she lost her job and underwent a police investigation (I believe). Was she a victim of prejudice? Should she now have an apology and be reinstated? How is this different? Just putting it out there.

without sounding dismissive of your point (and it’s an interesting one) nightowl can we keep to the subject of self identifying men/women and not add a further division? I’m finding life is taking on so many different edges to it that I’m becoming afraid to have an opinion on anything, after all I’m a straight white female Labour voting brexiteer...whatever I say is bound to upset someone!

As self-identification is likely to become the law in the near future the LP is simply moving ahead of the government (as usual). Does anyone really think that Denmark does not have a great record on the equality of women? and can anyone identify anything that has happened since they accepted self-identification to threaten that record?
The number of red herrings being raised on this thread is unbelievable. Can anyone state a genuine case from the countries already accepting self -identification where women have suffered less equality or been more discriminated against?

Just re capping on your thread TerriBull, No I don’t think one school of thought should trounce another,but I do think if there gradually becomes a majority of those in favour of any given subject within a group or party then this eventually gives rise to a break away group, because the difference of opinion becomes too great to remain cohesive so in that case yes definitely JC May have to do a U turn by siding with the few not the many!

Primrose65, thank you for your clarification. I did't realise you could just self identify in that way. Yes, anyone can fight for the rights of others. I was thinking more in a wider sense of biological experiences throughout one's life that the other gender would not encounter.

Ah, that makes perfect sense Devorgilla.

Trisher, I'm not sure that the 'evidence' you want could ever be collected. Academics are currently having issues studying the negative impact of anything transgender - apparently, upsetting people on Twitter is now a reason to reject research.

Primrose65 you posted earlier Devorgilla I think the argument is totally about self-identification.
The people who have been through the arduous process of transition are accepted as women - there are no issues with that at all.
I'm sorry you are wrong about this, present law asks that a person changing gender undergoes substantial examination Since 4 April 2005, as per the Gender Recognition Act 2004, it is possible for transgender people to change their legal gender in the UK, allowing them to acquire a new birth certificate, affording them full recognition of their acquired sex in law for all purposes. Transgender people must present evidence to a Gender Recognition Panel, which considers their case and issues a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC); they must have transitioned two years before a GRC is issued. It is not a requirement for sex reassignment surgery to have taken place, although such surgery will be accepted as part of the supporting evidence for a case where it has taken place. There is formal approval of medical gender reassignment available either on the National Health Service (NHS) or privately
Arguably this can cause stress that self identification removes

The other question is why there should be a 'negative effect" from trans gender women. Arguably these may well be active, strongly political women who will fight more for women's rights.

Surely transgender or people undergoing sex change is different to self identifying or am I totally naive.

Not necessarily different, self identification is seen as less stressful for those who have undergone sex reassignment surgery unless they present the evidence the GRP request they will not be permitted to change their gender. The law will probably change anyway and bring us into line with Denmark etc.

What 'evidence' is needed trisher, other than a couple of bills in your new name and a report from your doctor saying yes, this person wants to live as a woman and has felt this way for 2 years?
I think it's a T150 form you have to fill in and send off.
That's the only difference I can see between changing your gender and applying for a passport, which is a level of stress that's deemed OK for everyone.

But you said
If you have transitioned, you are a woman
Not until you've filled in the right forms now apparently. You seem to have some mixed ideas about what is really happening here.

According to a Mumsnet thread, there's a negative effect on the lesbian community from transactivists.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3146166-Transactivism-and-the-lesbian-community?messages=100&pg=1

When you've lived as a woman, been through the process, I don't have an issue trisher. I don't think that's a mixed idea at all. There's a process.
I'd still be interested to know how providing 'evidence' is so stressful. As I said - it's like a passport application.

SueDonim - I owe you an apology and a thank you, for your efforts on previous threads on this topic. I know back then, I had the opinion that this was a big fuss about nothing. I remember that you and other posters went to great pains to try and explain implications to me. It fell on deaf ears at the time, but it did make me research the topic more thoroughly and I've actually changed my mind about this. So a sorry for not thinking it through at the time and a thank you for creating a spark of interest.

If there is any negative effect on anyone of any gender or sexual persuasion it is wrong whatever the gender or sexual preference of the person concerned. It really doesn't make any difference if the person self identifies or goes through a required legal process to be identified. People who want to behave badly do so anyway.

I do agree that people who want to behave badly will do so anyway trisher. From the video's I've seen of the trans activists who behave badly, it's a group of men who like beating up women. The only difference is, now we hold those people up as inspirational people, fighting for a cause, who we should admire. We use to think they were violent misogynists. But now they have a licence to behave like that, as they can say 'I am a woman and you are transphobic'.

Primrose65, no apology required. I never remember what's been said on threads anyway! It's very kind of you, though, so have some :flowers: in return.

Or even !