Self Indentitying Women

Yesterday, visiting a neighbour in hospital, I self identified as a man and used the gents toilet closely followed by the other women who had been queuing for ages. We had a good laugh about the advantages of self identifying.

Why aren’t they ‘not threatening the rights of men’? It’s breaching a men only space just the same as we’ve discussed above. men can be just as shifty about that - look at men only clubs. But that’s not the point, what do they do? It seems that so much of the discussion is about the potential for abuse and violence. Surely the opposite is the case for a SI man going into a men’s loo or changing room. I’m curious, not seeking an argument.

It’s a good question mollie and there’s no simple answer. Yes there are situations were women are concerned about the potential for abuse or violence or the perceived potential based on past experience. Let’s take more serious examples than loos - imagine you are a woman who has suffered from domestic violence for years and finally has the courage to get away into a women’s refuge. Would you want to share that space with a SI man who has also been an abuse victim? I think both the woman and the SI man have equal rights to shelter and support but in separate facilities. Or you are a female rape victim going to a rape support group - do you want a SI man as a group member? Is his experience of rape the same as yours? Again both groups deserve help and support but surely not together. I’ve gone off the point of your question , sorry. But far more men abuse/rape women than vice versa - women are more wary of the greater physical size and strength of men than vice versa. I suppose men see transmen as not a potential physical threat. Also transmen don’t seem to be being so aggressive in demanding their rights so men don’t feel threatened by them. Certainly the RTA group seem to be all men with working penises. The latest campaign for a trans woman is a prisoner who wants to be transferred to a woman’s prison - his convictions? Breaking into dozens of homes with a nice little sideline of when there masturbating into young girls’ used underwear. Nice. Again I’m not saying they should have to be in a men’s prison but a trans women wing could be a solution - not a woman’s prison - I mean really?

I have very little experience of rape support groups, but very aware that people of both sexes are raped. Are rape support groups single sex groups always, sometimes? Isn't rape a matter of power rather than sex?
Has SI in the countries already using it resulted in a rise in the number of male prisoners asking to enter women's prisons?

Rape support groups are single sex - I agree about rape being about power rather than sex but I think there are perhaps different issues for men compared with women that the members of the group might want to stop explore. I’m guessing that men might prefer single sex groups too. But I think the overwhelming point here is that there should be choice and no one, male or female, should have to go to a support group with someone of the other sex or a trans person if that would get in the way of the help and support they wanted. All I know about SI prisoners in Ireland is that the prison service uses biological sex to determine whether you go to a male or female prison. These are all the issues that need lots of thought and consultation and not just the blanket ‘right on’ approach that SI is the answer to everything.

Delete ‘stop’

www.newstatesman.com/politics/feminism/2018/01/marie-dean-story-shows-there-s-no-simple-answer-how-we-treat-transgender?amp&__twitter_impression=true

Some sense here

Thanks for that maryeliza. Great article.

It is a good article. If a prisoner is accepted as transgender, then they should be held in a prison for the sex to which they have transitioned. If they are a danger to other inmates then they should be held in separate confinement or what ever solitary confinement is called these days. There is no doubt in my mind that the prison service is failing the transgender prisoner and the other inmates. Surely no one would disagree?

Did anybody read the PHE leaflet I mentioned in my post yesterday at 1:51? I thought there would be comments on its contents. The application process for a Gender Recognition Certificate too.

Suzied made an interesting point when she queried the psychological aspect of transgender. I get the BPS (British Psychological Society) Digest and in their last summary of recent research was an article looking at this - you have to scroll down to the article :
digest.bps.org.uk/category/mental-health/

Thanks for link Azie.it illustrates overwhelmingly the need for much more research rather than the headlong rush approach advocated by for example Mermaids. The other thing that came through so strongly was the frightening orthodoxy that is rife in Canada (the banning of the BBC programme with Zuckers now unacceptable position). I found that really worrying and it is happening here - the NS article I linked to demonstrated this - the failure of MSM to report the full facts of the prisoners convictions and the cries of transphobia if one tries to question the emphasis on trans rights at the expense of women and girls rights.

A person ( man or trans women) who did what he did has serious mental health issues and is clearly a danger to women. Putting him in solitary confinement would r3fuce the danger but surely wouldn’t be good for his mental health. Yet our prisons are terribly overcrowded and under resourced - women prisoners have very high rates of mental health issues and vulnerability. Why should scarce resources be denied to them be spent on transmen unquestionably? The other thing that is part of the new orthodoxy is that police forces are recording crime under the sex that the person identifies as - how absolutely ridiculous if analysis of crime figures are to mean anything.

Yes once again I do agree maryeliza, there was a thread a while back on GN, that touched on the subject of transwomen in prisons I remember posting after reading an article in the ST specifically on that. I recall that article outlined several cases, one I remember was about a male prisoner who had held down and raped a 15 year old girl and was now self identifying as a woman and is either already in a female prison or asking to be transferred into one. There has to be a distinction between the genuine cases of males who are living their life in the wrong sex, and those who are being opportunistic and could be a danger to women moving into female designated areas.

So do you think that because of a few isolated examples of people who are exploiting something, the troubled people who have struggled with their gender and decided to become women should be subjected to more trauma and not allowed to self identify? Isn't that a bit like saying there is a rat somewhere so we will kill all the animals in the house? Surely systems can be incorperated to deal with challenges and anomalies without subjecting anyone to unreasonable interference.

I’m not at all against self identification - I’m against the headlong rush into this becoming the new orthodoxy without a proper thorough consultation with ALL the people this impacts on starting with the 51% of the population who the new orthodoxy think should call themselves cis-women. I’m definitely against a situation where the rights of women and girls are tramp.ed underfoot. The complacency about this that is the Governments position is chilling - and yes Labour and Lib Dems are just as bad.

I always worry about people who think every one else is wrong and they are presenting the only reasoned argument. In my experience what that means is they want to be seen as reasonable but are actually just presenting prejudice as reason.

Please don’t worry about me trisher. Personally I worry about people who think step changes in important legislation don’t need proper consultation and proper consideration but there you go, clearly you think I’m wrong to want legislation to be fit for purpose.

That's why we have votes and parliament me54 but apparently you don't trust them.

No I don’t trust ill informed unconsidered legislation going before Parliament and then havimg lobby fodder march through the lobbies obeying the whip and without in most cases understanding anything about the issues involved. Once upon a time with such legislation as this there would have been a Green Paper followed by a White Paper before the draft Bill with periods of wide consultation. Perhaps you could explain what’s wrong with that process? Fit for purpose legislation would have the exceptions written into the Bill rather than afterwards people going oops never thought about that.

Maryeliza sounds very reasonable and considered to me.

It's a long process, it isn't always necessary and it is impossible to write into legislation safeguards for every situation which might or might not arise at some point. You say 'exceptions" but how many of these should be written in? what if a situation arises that you haven't accounted for? The law is always painted with a wide brush. It can be done no other way.

It may be a few isolated transgender women that are involved (although I haven't seen any figures, so I don't know) but they are the ones setting the agenda at the moment. That's what many women are concerned about.

Lesbians being told they are TERF's because they don't want to have sex with a women with a penis, the so-called cotton ceiling. The Green Party suggestion of two genders: men and non-men. Men such as Ian Huntley, who murdered the two little Soham girls, now wanting to be placed in a women's prison.

As for trusting in votes, I don't see much trust in the referendum on EU membership or Scottish Independence, nor the Lib Dem u-turn on student fees.

I agree with your sensible position, Maryeliza.

So what is your solution for a trans woman who is a danger to others maryeliza?

Actually I think the agenda is being driven by the LGBTQ+ community.

They are one of the drivers yes but so are the TRA ( there may be an overlap). As for a solution, that’s why proper open transparent debate is needed. The answer is not to put trans women in women only prisons and put women in danger of exploitation ( as has already happened) or abuse. I think there will have to be trans women wings - can’t see what else would address the concerns, rights and safety of BOTH groups. Some trans women may have to be in solitary for their own protection just like some prisoners are now. I think the prisoner on hunger strike seems to have real mental health problems and could well be an uncomfortable ( to say the least) cell mate for anyone. And remember being locked up in a cell for 23 hours is increasingly common now with a resource starved prison service.