Labour advisor : "You're white and your entire existence is drenched in racism.".

ww are you saying that you do think that suffragettes were ‘white supremacists’ ? You don’t admire all their hard work and effort put in to secure the vote for women?

I have answered that further up earlier in the day I think.
"I think if we are going to look at the proposition that suffragettes were white supremacists we need historical perspective. So if you are going to look at their behaviour from a modern perspective, then the answer is definately yes."

Is that the answer you mean ww?

There were working class suffragettes, but the middle and upper class women had time to give to this cause, as they didn’t have jobs ( usually.)
Actually all human beings are inherently racist, not just white people but many countries ( including the UK) do their best to insure a level playing field and some ( many I suspect) do their best to rise above racism.
This person (Monroe B) perhaps doesn't know much about the suffrage movement in this country.

Make your mind up primrose you are either arguing about the suffragette movement or the statement by the transgender bod.

I have answered that further up earlier in the day I think.

The accusation is they were all white supremacists, fighting for white women's rights and black women did not get the vote.
Just because you think there was no 'active inclusion' does not mean they were white supremacists, or that 'it's hard to say'.

Despite people trying to tell her that this was just not the case in the UK, she followed it with

"Tbh the fact that we are celebrating 100 years since women got the vote at the anniversary that white women got the vote. Shows how as a society we prioritise and centre white experiences, placing whiteness as the norm whilst erasing black history."

Ironically erasing black history herself.

I wasn't joining in the 'suffragettes were white supremacists' argument, Primrose. I was dealing with the ,existence is drenched in racism' bit. She's right on that, misguided on the suffragettes.

But we've no idea how much depth she's gone into with regard to the suffragettes. If she's just reliant on school history I doubt very much if the involvement of suffragettes from other 'empire' nations would even have been mentioned.

She's advising (along with others) on LBGT issues. I'm not sure that an accurate knowledge of the history of the womens' suffrage movement is an essential requirement for that.. Though, of course, any LP appointee to any position has to be perfect in every single way, don't they?

What is she advising the Labour Party on?

Whilst if you read my post, my conclusion is that it is difficult to decide whether the suffragette movement as a whole were racist. Your example of Indian suffrage movement is not a good example. This was organised by Primrose Sophie a member of the aristocracy and whose upbringing was indistinguishable from that of many of the suffrage movement membership.
So whilst there may not have been active exclusion, there was no active inclusion of either the working class or black woman. My argument is simply that the educated suffragette would have been aware of class and race, so it cannot be said with any certainty one way or the other.

Here's what she wrote
"FYI - The Suffragettes were white supremacists who were fighting for WHITE womens rights - they specifically left black women out of the movement. It is not 100 years since women got the vote it's 100 years since WHITE women got the vote. Black women couldnt vote until MUCH later"

I think it's a shame that the history is erased, the struggle and achievement of women of colour are thrown under the bus for the sake of a lazy and incorrect narrative by someone who is advising the Labour Party.

Even from a historical perspective, I don't think the suffragettes were white supremacists. Who are the individuals who were keen to exclude black women? Did they want them excluded on the basis that white people are superior?
There were absolutely suffragettes from many races. 17 June 1911, suffrage societies marched to demand votes, and it had an empire pageant with women representing India, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and the West Indies.

I think if we are going to look at the proposition that suffragettes were white supremicists we need historical perspective. So if you are going to look at their behaviour from a modern perspective, then the answer is definately yes.

However, it was primarily an upper/middle class movement. Indeed there was opinion common amongst the suffrage movement that working class women had nothing to offer and were certainly not welcome into the movement.

If we turn to that of race in the suffrage movement. By the beginning of the 21st century, there was widespread discussion about both class and race, as well as the issues relating to the British Empire and the injustices emanating from that. So the suffragette cannot claim total ignorance, indeed given the advantage of their class and education they were in a position to be leaders in this field. There were undoubtedly then individuals in the suffragette movement who were keen to exclude both the working class and black women. Was this representative of the suffrage movement as a whole? Difficult to say. But it is a fact that there were few if any members of the working classes and no blacks.

So, were the suffragettes white supremacists? yes or no ?

I say No

I know suzied. She wrote an article for Grazia saying 'women are getting feminism wrong'. Yet she's a woman.

No one has said that she hates white people - her girlfriend is white, I think. I assume she does not hate her. I do think that you cannot just say an inflammatory comment is 'just an interpretation of history'.

Suffragettes were white supremacists. Just an interpretation?

Was the slavery that existed in Africa before Europeans took part in the trans-Atlantic slave trade the fault of white people too? That's a rhetorical question.

The trans-Atlantic slave trade was vile in every way but non-white people are not innocent. Human beings of all races have enslaved other human beings throughout human history.

It might be true that our whole existence is drenched in racism but that does not make me, or most other white people who exist now, personally guilty. Bergdorf would appear to have very bitter and warped views.

This woman herself is half white. She states she does not hate white people, that would be herself and half her family. This is her interpretation of history, it may not be other people’s interpretation.

Just like she was not really saying all suffragettes were white supremacists?

She absolutely was saying that Maizie. And as others have pointed out, there's nothing wrong with that.

"Yes ALL white people. Because most of ya’ll don’t even realise or refuse to acknowledge that your existence, privilege and success as a race is built on the backs, blood and death of people of colour. Your entire existence is drenched in racism."

There is a comment up thread that the lives of slaves were similar to those of workers during the Industrial Revolution. The mill workers (my ancestors) in Manchester had a life expectancy of about 30 in the mid 19th century, outside of Manchester it was about 41. However, they were free people.

That was me, Iam64 and I would hold to my contention that the 'freedom' of the industrial workers was very often name only. their economic choices were just about nil... Have you read Dickens, Engels, Inquiries into, say, children working in factories or mines?

Anyway, that's a bit of a diversion from the topic. I don't think that Berghorf was accusing every white individual of being racist, she was somewhat forcibly pointing out that white supremacy is based on racism. Which is true.

The forum is News and Politics.
What are you accusing people of, Annie?
How can Momentum be running the forum?

Silly question Durhamjen , very silly, and very smug

How rude!

I thought we were all allowed to contribute to all threads Annie. What would you do if someone from Momentum were to contribute. I would be very interested. We could get answers to some of our questions if they did.

Not as silly as your question, but there you go again......

Silly question Durhamjen , very silly, and very smug

If they were, Annie, what would you do about it?

Not that I am aware

Are Momentum running this forum ?

I can think of quite a few Tories who are unsuitable for the posts they are in, starting with Boris as foreign secretary.