Labour advisor : "You're white and your entire existence is drenched in racism.".

I wish people would try to seperate and understand the statements she has made and stop reading into them their own prejudices and preconceived beliefs.
Historically there is no doubt that the society we now inhabit was built through slavery and exploitation, so yes "your existence is drenched in racism".
And yes white people have oppressed and behaved violently towards others.
Then there is the question about William Wilberforce. Yes he was an abolitionist and fought slavery, but that doesn't mean he couldn't have been racist as well. Believing all men should be free is not the same as believng all men are equal.
It isn't a simple subject and the dismissive and critical comments which fail to really look at the issues involved are indications that there is an element of racism present.

Eloethan - I agree with your point that its difficult for white people to understand what it feels like to be non white, even if its only part of your heritage.
Like many families, we have family members and friends who aren't white British. We have gay and lesbian friends and family members. We have one young family member who is struggling with gender identity and is relieved this can be discussed in the family/friendship group without criticism or derogatory comments.
Surely that's the point isn't it? That somehow we all muddle through, doing our best and acknowledging that the White British Male members of our family have less idea of what it feels like to be oppressed than many others.

Eloethan

I understand the sensitivity involved when debates on race are being discussed but I am unsure what your view is of Bergdorfs stance and the fact she is an adviser to Labour Shadow Minister Dawn Butler.

Are you agreeing with Bergdorfs comments, tweets , articles face book page etc..

E.G
Do you agree all white people are racist?

Do you agree the white race is the most violent and oppressive force of nature on earth?

I won't mention other 'ditties' for viewing.

Additionally, when we lived in the north west, my daughter was subjected to a great deal of racism and was frequently referred to as a "Paki".

When people are mixed race, they are often treated as if they are foreign. My son has a white mum (me) and an Asian dad (my husband). My son was born in this country, has no accent and has lived here all his life. Yet he has been known to be asked where he comes from and has been called a "Paki".

Mixed race people are often not seen as also having white heritage and are sometimes treated as if they are foreign, hence the reason why some of them see themselves primarily ass "black".

POGS
I have, and I've come to the same conclusion as some on here have. Unfortunately those conclusions can't be shared on this forum.

petra 12.44

It confuses me too, there is no consistency as to how she elects to describe herself.

Just read the links on this thread alone.

Yes that appears to be the ‘illogical logic’ of what Bergdorf said !

So we should regard William Willberforce as a man who was a racist because he was white and not admire his fight to abolish slavery

We can only judge yesterday’s decisions on yesterday’s circumstances ,everything has a starting point & we as a nation have evolved & changed over time ( as has the rest of the world,) but sadly not at the same rate ,we still have starvation ,cruelty , issues of every kind. So I think she should have couched her comments in the right context to the norms of the time. The rights & wrongs of the past cannot be changed, better that we celebrate that we are forever moving forwards in an attempt to eradicate all predjudices. But sadly equality for many people is still along way off, I cannot believe that in parts of the world there is still chronic starvation, and where people have no power of their own lives . So that particular stand alone comment
doesn’t really help anyone.

Could someone explain to this simple soul (me) why, she chose to call herself a white person when she is clearly mixed race and not a black person?
Am I missing something?

I think white people - and I am one but my husband is Asian - have little comprehension of how it feels to be black and are often keen to minimise or even deny the racism that many black people continue to experience.

Many times when the issue of racism is raised, white people make confident pronouncements as to there being very little racism now, sometimes suggesting that those who complain have "chips on their shoulders". It must feel like the whole of society is racist when people have their own experiences of racism brushed aside in this way.

durhamjen.

Yesterday I posted re Bergdorf and her appearence on THIS WEEK last October. You posted, presumably to me :-

durhamjen Sat 03-Mar-18 10:54:10
" I can't see anywhere there where she has said ALL white people in the UK are irredeemably racist.

I am sure if she had said that you would have quoted it."

That was after I quoted from the programme :-

YOU THINK WE ARE IRREDEEMABLY RACIST DON'T YOU?

" YES , I DO UNFORTUNATELY I DO. I THINK THE SUCCESS OF BRITAIN IS LITERALLY BASED ON RACISM."

Today you put forward yet another link from the Guardian which states :-

"For the record, I’m white. I don’t hate other white people. Lots of my friends are white. Yet the statement “all white people are racist” doesn’t make me angry. It makes me sad, because I believe it’s probably true."
---

Bergdorf does not fight shy of accepting what she has said it appears to me and it doesn't take much to see or hear what she has said from her in person.

If some people believe what she says 100% then fine, but if you are white then you are accepting you too believe you are racist ,albeit not learned but you inherited your attitude because consciously or unconsciously it was passed down to you through privilege. Oh and you believe the WHITE RACE is the most violent and oppressive force of nature on earth"

Or can you agree with somebody , validate their opinion but you don't include yourself in the equation but happily, readily apply it only to 'others'.?

I don't think you were wrong Baggs, when people get their photographs in the papers for publicity then comments are made, such as that time a so called celeb was photographed without knickers . I think chicken fillet boobs are ugly and little wonder young girls are so troubled by what they consider are their ugly bodies,

Yes, I am sorry about the crass remark on appearance. It was not really about her in particular though but a comment on my dislike of the red carpet fashion of women exposing, in my opinion, far too much chest and, in some cases, too much chest enhancement. I don't think it is crass to dislike and to say one dislikes, a fashion.

But it is true, I should not have made it personal.

I don't know if it was in Baggs' post or in the newspaper that I read this woman had made a reference to "Butch Lezzies" and a "joke" about gay bashing.

I too think that such remarks are totally unacceptable and, while I think her comments relating to racism, though poorly expressed, had substance, I don't think the sort of remarks she has made relating to gay people can be justified. I would not pass it off as "banter" whoever had said it.

I think it is also wrong to, in response, make similarly crass comments regarding a person's appearance.

Apparently now MB has been quite derogatory towards the lesbian community and has had to issue yet another apology/clarification.

Well said Baggs

I've just caught up this this thread and want to correct what I said in a rather garbled post. I commented that I hadn't seen comments from Bergdorf that incited violence. Baggs corrected me by quoting a comment from Bergdorf about gay bashing. Since yesterday, I've read a number of articles, including the Times article Baggs quotes here. Baggs, I agree with your views on this issue.
I'm stunned that some posters see Bergdorf's comments as possibly being banter between like minded people, which makes it all ok. It doesn't. So called "banter" between like minded people which is derogatory or abusive towards say gay, lesbian, black, ethnic, minority groups, women, people with various disabilities (etc) are rightly condemned.

Posters who think it their business to just tell other people how to behave never seem to be removed

Do you think posters themselves should be removed because you don't agree with their posts or because they are passing comment on someone's appearance or behaviour?

I prefer natural with all its imperfections and I think the endless striving for supposed physical perfection is a major factor in the reported increasing mental health problems in young women. Young men too but rather less so according to reports.

There is so much in the news about body dysmorphia and young girls especially disliking their appearance, their bodies, that this comment is very relevant imo. It is an extremely worrying trend.

Thank you Petra.

I had some unkind thoughts about Bergdorf's picture in the paper this morning. Low décolletage revealing stuck on, rather unconvincing breasts. This wasn't a transphobic thought; I'd have the same thoughts about any obviously false breast enhancements. I prefer natural with all its imperfections and I think the endless striving for supposed physical perfection is a major factor in the reported increasing mental health problems in young women. Young men too but rather less so according to reports.

This was the singularly tasteless and irrelevant post by Baggs which prompted my now removed post.

I realise now that I should have just told her straight that I thought it was horrible and in no way relevant to the topic being discussed; which was Ms Bergdorf's suitability as an advisor on LBGT issues, not her personal appearance. In fgact, it seemed to be bordering on transphobic despite her disclaimer.

Posters who think it their business to just tell other people how to behave never seem to be removed...

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/06/white-people-solution-problem-munroe-bergdorf-racist

Oh, thanks, petra. Doing great with my fuzzy headed misreadings today, aren't I? Sorry again, janea!

Baggs
It wasn't Janea who asked you to post a picture for others to criticise, it was MaizieD. That post has been deleted but not at the posters request.