The Labour Party

When it happens, as it does often on these boards, it really begs the question whether you have anything at all to rebut the substance of the argument being put forward.


You asked for news in the OP and I posted a link to news without making any comment about it one way or another.

Ironically, John McDonnell saying something pretty sensible that no one has disputed.
Yes, I nearly fell off my chair when I thought 'I think I may agree with McDonnell'

But then I wondered if it is a sensible idea - perhaps we need to keep those links open.

Why is that post any more confrontational than your posts Jalima?
I thought this was a very odd response to my factual post:
Tory MPs appearing on it is okay, but not Labour MPs, is that it?
Strange because I expressed no opinion one way or another. Labour MPs can appear as much as they (or McDonnell) likes as far as I am concerned.

Me too Jamila. I was going to post a link, but noticed you'd done it already. I was a bit distracted by my daily essay and neglected to reply

I was watching him as he said it and I couldn't believe it. I do think Corbyn has now overruled him though. That seems to be happening a lot recently. They are not a united voice at the moment on some details, which is unusual.

It doesn't seem to be how others see it. There are articles in both the Guardian and the Times today about the incompetence and deafness of the Tory Party apperatchiks and we have seen it again from Hammond today.

You may think people don't want Corbyn and McDonnell, Bridgeit but they are wanting a Tory government even less.

From the Times:
The Labour leader and his shadow chancellor are articulating the frustration that people feel while also appealing to idealistic younger voters who want to reshape society. The Tories are talking statistics to an electorate that is hurting, and parroting pessimism to a generation looking for hope. As Andrew Marr told Mr Hammond on Sunday when he insisted that local councils could raise more money to pay for social care: “That is an actuarial answer to people who are screaming with pain in terms of the system being absolutely at breaking point."

I think that quote doesn't convey the central message of the opinion piece in the Times GGMk2. As it's behind a paywall, here's some context.

"Even moderate Labour MPs think Mr McDonnell’s programme of renationalisations, massive public borrowing and squeezing the rich until the pips squeak would be a disaster for the country. But that’s not the point. In modern politics, emotional connection matters as much as rational argument. The Labour leader and his shadow chancellor are articulating .....

Theresa May has promised to fix “broken markets” but her solutions too often ape Labour policies, such as the energy price cap or cutting the burden of tuition fees. Instead the Tories need a distinctive plan for a more responsible capitalism."

I read it as a bit of a 'sort yourselves out, Tories'. Not sure how you interpreted the whole article as a vote for Corbyn & Co.

No doubt McDonnell has realised since the weekend ( of the incident in Salisbury) that staying away from RT, a mouthpiece for the Russian State is a good idea.In fact, a good idea for all MP’s.
That doesn’t mean there should be any kind of hate campaign against Russians living here (or anywhere else.)

Wonder what sort of whitewash the Kremlin will come up with by tonight!

I think it conveyed the point very well Primrose. I think we all know that the so called "moderates" are more likely to back the Tories, whatever they do to the country and it is not unexpected to see a Times writer highlight that. The piece I quoted isn't often said by the right though. They seem to be happy with their heads in the sand and backsides in the air and what was suggested is that this way lies a good kicking at the next election.

I was interested in the voters. I quoted, exactly because it is behind a paywall, and quoted what was relevant not an attempt to play down how disliked the Tories are. Are you suggesting that the LP are not "articulating the frustration that people feel while also appealing to idealistic younger voters who want to reshape society.", or that the Tories are not "talking statistics to an electorate that is hurting, and parroting pessimism to a generation looking for hope."

Would you like to write my next post for me Primrose? You apparently know so much better how to get what I want to say over than I do. I wonder sometimes just when you will stop arrogantly telling people what to write and think.

More attacks on people than on politics as usual lemongrove.

I think that WTF? Is all that is needed to answer that*GG*.

Which probably tells us everything we really need to know about the level of your opinions lemongrove.

Primrose was quite right to quote the rest of the article ‘around’ the bits that you quoted GG as it puts a different slant on things.
Things that are left out are often just as important as those that are said.

Your opinions seem spot on to me Lemongrove, very articulate & to the point, sometimes that’s all you need to express an opinion .

Nope, it just tells you GGM2 what I think of your opinions.

Thanks Bridgeit

PMQ’s should be interesting on Wednesday.

Primrose was quite right to quote the rest of the article ‘around’ the bits that you quoted GG as it puts a different slant on things.

It's that language thing again, isn't it Lemongrove. She was not right (or wrong) to quote what she wanted to refer to in order to mitigate or challenge what I put forward. She was condescending, supercilious, patronizing - something along those lines - in telling me that is what I should have done is put forward her point of view.

Back to the discussion. Are you suggesting that the LP are not "articulating the frustration that people feel while also appealing to idealistic younger voters who want to reshape society.", or that the Tories are not "talking statistics to an electorate that is hurting, and parroting pessimism to a generation looking for hope." If so I would love you to expand on that and explain your thinking.

Crikey GGMk2. Try and put a bit of context around my post so that it explains why I read the article differently and I'm controlling and arrogant, telling you what to write. If I just said I disagreed, their would be a post attacking 'no evidence'.

It's not a problem if we take different opinions on the thrust of an opinion piece in a paper. Just better if it's a bit more of a measured response.

I think that quote doesn't convey the central message of the opinion piece in the Times GGMk2. As it's behind a paywall, here's some context. I read it as a bit of a 'sort yourselves out, Tories'. Not sure how you interpreted the whole article as a vote for Corbyn & Co.

So tell me how this is

condescending, supercilious, patronizing
how am I telling you that is what you should have done is put forward my point of view.

A debate is really not about throwing insults at other people.

It's not a problem if we take different opinions on the thrust of an opinion piece in a paper.

That was what I said.

It wasn't how you put your opinion in the original post.

Grandad 1943

"In regard to Hamas that organisation has held great influence in Gaza since many Palestinians arrived there (others where already there) following their losses on the creation of Israel.

It matters little who has held "official power" over the years, Hamas has always been the voice of the voice of the Palestinians, whether any nation has liked that or not, so those are the people that Corbyn choose to speak to. In that I would suggest that should a peace settlement in the Middle East ever come about, Hamas will play a leading role in making that settlement."

I admit to not sharing your view of Corbyn , indeed I hold quite a strong opposite view of Corbyn.

Referring to Corbyn and the fact he called Hamas and Hezbollah “friends” .

Whilst there is a truth in saying Hamas speaks for the Palestinan people Hamas is not the only party. I hope the recent Hamas and Fatah reconciliation agreement in Cairo holds. However this is the latest news today and I hope it does not prove a return of the bitterness between them.

www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/03/explosion-hits-palestinian-pm-rami-hamdallah-enters-gaza-180313083301418.html

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/13/rami-hamdallah-palestinian-pm-explosion-convoy

" there was no immediate claim of responsibility, but the Palestinian Authority said it held Hamas, which seized control of the Gaza Strip in 2007, responsible, suggesting it had failed to provide adequate security.

“The Palestinian presidency holds Hamas responsible for the cowardly targeting of the prime minister’s convoy in Gaza,” the official Palestinian news agency, Wafa, reported."
--

The problem I share with many is the timing of the Corbyn relationship with the likes of Hamas/Hezbollah/IRA/Iran. To hear and read some people they don't understand the problem some people have with Corbyn goes back years. He and his fellow like minded politicians , Dianne Abbott , John McDonnell , were not on any official business , they were giving their backing to terrorist organisations and anti UK countries like Iran at times of UK heightened security and many people remember their views, actions and rhetoric at the time. The facts are there to be read and seen and people of a certain age remember for themselves the actions he took such as inviting convicted IRA volunteers to the House of Commons after the Brighton Bombing . He was not viewed as a respected , kind politician then and to some he remains a person who has not changed his long standing views , no matter how sanitised or white washed they have become since taking on the role of Labour Leader. Why should they he is a 'Conviction Politician' is he not?

It should be remembered Hamas is classed as a Terrorist Organisation by many countries, infact The European Court of Justice ruled that Hamas remains on the EU terrorism blacklist in July 2017.

Thank you POGS

I really don't understand why the idea that talking to people is a bad thing. Desmond Tutu said "If you want peace, you don't talk to your friends. You talk to your enemies."

So many people who know about these things think this way so why does this make anyone a bad person when they do it. As for calling someone "friend" so what! If it increased understanding what on earth is the issue?

Who calls Hamas and Hezbollah ‘friends’ ?!