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GracesGranMK2 Thu 08-Mar-18 09:20:23

Simple title so should be easy to update everyone with any bits of knowledge we gain.

GracesGranMK2 Thu 08-Mar-18 09:29:07

I see the attacks on the LP for anti-Semitism have started up again. This time because of a Facebook group. It will be interesting to see how much mud is thrown this time before someone sorts out whatever the truth was. The usual response from a JC spokesperson.

“Jeremy condemns anti-Semitism in all its forms in the strongest possible terms,” they told HuffPost UK.

“He does not want the support of anti-Semites, who have no place whatsoever in the Labour movement."

It seems to be the usual merging pro-Palestinian rights with anti-Semitism. I don't suppose that is ever going to be an easy subject.

TerriBull Thu 08-Mar-18 10:32:20

I think if Jewish people have voiced their dismay at anti-Semitism in the Labour party, particularly within Momentum then clearly it's a problem.

Meanwhile over on MN here's another headache that Labour are going to have to deal with any time soon "May Day 4 Women" which is galvanising a mass resignation by women who are members of the Labour party over the LP's stance on trans gender issues. Someone on one of the trans gender threads on MN posted an extract on You Tube of Julia Hartley-Brewer interviewing the young man who goes by the name of "Lily Madigan" a Labour Party Women's Officer. Painful! but an insight into what is emerging from this strange Pandora's Box. Similarly the merging, or perhaps I should say trouncing of women's rights, 50% of the population with transgender rights, less than l% won't be an easy subject either.

paddyann Thu 08-Mar-18 11:05:50

being PRO palestinian doesn't make you anti semitic...just anti Israeli government policy ...maybe people need to understand that .

GracesGranMK2 Thu 08-Mar-18 11:28:18

I think if Jewish people have voiced their dismay at anti-Semitism in the Labour party, particularly within Momentum then clearly it's a problem.

I think that is a very big leap of logic Terribull. Surely, if Jewish people have voiced their dismay at anti-Semitism in the Labour party, and within Momentum it is an issue. Until it is investigated we will not know if it is a problem or not.

I agree paddyann. Being pro the resolution of the Palestinian problems or even the anti Israeli government stance on this is by no means being anti-Semitic.

Primrose65 Thu 08-Mar-18 11:29:45

Those groups are clearly anti-Semitic GGMk2! I think you must be the only person who's confused.

Perhaps Corbyn needs to explain why he and a few LP MPs and activists were members and why he instructed his office to arrange for them to have meetings in parliament? Did he arrange for some of the people in the group, who share holocaust denial material to go on a LP trip to Palestine and Israel? If not him, who was it?

Clive Lewis is a member of the group, so are Seb Corbyn and Chris Williamson.

Looks like several people in the Labour Party are interested in reading about how the Jews made up the holocaust so that they can act like victims. Or read the rubbish written by white supremacist groups which is shared when it's about Jews. There seem to be more posts trying to disprove the holocaust than about Palestine. Why are they going into this sort of social media sewer?

whitewave Thu 08-Mar-18 11:33:55

What we must bear in mind that the May elections are looming, with a disaster forecast for the Tories. That remains to be seen, but we can be quietly confident that as much mud as possible will be slung at the Labour Party by the MSM in support of their party. The truth will be the first casualty as usual on the headline grabbers.

GracesGranMK2 Thu 08-Mar-18 11:45:05

I am not confused, thank you Primrose. I do not know the ins and outs of the details and I really doubt that you do.

What you have posted seems to contain no facts about anti-Semitic words or acts so it is difficult to answer. It's is all supposition. Why do you think it is okay to accuse people of something you simply have no evidence for. I don't. I will condemn anyone who turns out to have been anti anyone because of their race, religion or sex in a hateful way. I am not going to begin to condemn people without evidence. I don't consider vitriol evidence.

All I have seen is MSM having a field day with questions and inverted commas again and your post which certainly sounds both righteous and angry but with nothing concrete put forward.

If groups meeting in the HoP made the people in those groups anti-Semitic we would have an awful lot of people having to answer those charges.

GracesGranMK2 Thu 08-Mar-18 11:48:47

True whitewave. We have seen the results of mud-slinging in the past when it came to trying to damp down enthusiasm for the LP. Perhaps this is the only area that has been found to have any effect so far as most of the mud slinging has only added numbers to the LP and also Momentum. If this is the case then it is not only despicable but anti-Semitic in its own right.

whitewave Thu 08-Mar-18 11:55:50

I am afraid that I take this “fury”about anti-semitism with a pinch of salt. Labour Party members criticise the Israeli approach and violence to Palestine. They also disagree with the Zionist attitude to land grab, and say so.

How this interprets as anti-semitism is beyond me.

No doubt the same people criticise what is happening in Syria, or Yemen none of which I consider anti-Islamic.

It is all nonesense.

lemongrove Thu 08-Mar-18 12:01:38

ww and GGM2 you seem to be saying that people are ‘confusing’ anti Zionism and anti semitism within Labour,
Is that fact or merely your opinions?

lemongrove Thu 08-Mar-18 12:06:08

It’s well documented and known that Labour have a problem with anti semitism within their ranks, and Corbyn himself has said in the recent past that it will not be tolerated ( although talk is cheap.)
So no, it is not just a case of MSM being critical of this problem and is certainly not nonsense.
Being in denial about the present Labour Party members who are anti semites will not help this go away!

GracesGranMK2 Thu 08-Mar-18 12:19:07

I can't speak for whitewave but I wasn't saying that at all. What I was saying is that we do not know. There seems to be little evidence as yet. I am not prepared to make up my mind on the regurgitations of the MSM often for it's own specific purposes.

It is certainly true in general that being anti the current behavior of the Israeli government has been muddled with being anti-Semitic. I didn't say anything about anti-Zionist; you have brought that into the conversation. I am not prepared to be dramatic about it - it doesn't help when trying to sort the evidence from the propaganda.

whitewave Thu 08-Mar-18 12:23:14

I’m not in denial lemon neither am I confused between anti-semitism and anti- Zionism.

There are people in the Labour Party who have said some silly things which are anti-Semitic, just as there are anti-semitists, and other unmentionable anti’s in Tory party.

They will be dealt with as appropriate, and hopefully swiftly

But it is neither characteristic of the Labour nor Tory party as a whole.

I simply cannot spend another thread discussing this it is boring beyond words.

As I said the May elections will come soon enough, and much of this will be dropped.

GracesGranMK2 Thu 08-Mar-18 12:26:57

No one is in denial Lemongrove. All parties, from time to time, have had issues with individuals and racism. They have to uncover this and deal with it. In no case does it make that party racist unless that is their intention - such as the BNP.

Primrose65 Thu 08-Mar-18 12:29:21

What you have posted seems to contain no facts about anti-Semitic words or acts so it is difficult to answer. It's is all supposition.

I'm not posting their hate-filled, conspiracist and anti-Semitic bile on GN! My posts would be deleted, and quite rightly so. I have not read about it in the MSM, so we could be talking about something different, but I have read the report. So it's not really supposition. I've seen the screen grabs, read the comments. If you just want to read the MSM that you criticise, that's up to you. I'm not surprised that a newspaper would not print the content though. It is vile, extreme and uses language that would easily be considered hate speech.

ww - that was not the content in these Facebook groups though. It's not what they were talking about. I'm afraid it's the apologists here who are full of supposition and assumptions!

You can choose to vote for people who hang out with and facilitate meetings and trips for people who hate Jews and think they have no place on the planet. That's your choice. I'll judge Corbyn by my own ethics. That's my choice.

whitewave Thu 08-Mar-18 12:32:20

primSo I understand that you will not post the content of the anti-Semitic posts. But I assume you are able to name those who have posted such hate-filled bile, just as we call out others who post anti-rascist remarks.

lemongrove Thu 08-Mar-18 12:34:15

Of course, no Party itself is racist ( apart from BNP and similar) but the LP does seem to have attracted more anti Jewish people in recent years than ever before.I think that Corbyn and ‘those at the top’ realise this but do have to actually do something beyond rhetoric to deal with it.

GracesGranMK2 Thu 08-Mar-18 12:34:43

You may not wish to repeat extreme posts but your own seems to have become quite extreme in its own way. Who are you accusing of "hating Jews".

lemongrove Thu 08-Mar-18 12:36:49

Why don’t you just go and read them WW then you would know and could make your mind up?

mostlyharmless Thu 08-Mar-18 12:39:11

There is a difference between being anti-Semitic and anti-Zionist.
Palestinians (mainly Moslem) are being pushed out of their home towns in Palestine by Israel. It seems that people can’t speak out about these injustices without being labelled anti-Semitic.

TerriBull Thu 08-Mar-18 12:40:21

"I think that's a very big leap of logic Terribull"

Reported in The Times in January. "Seven Sisters a long thin council ward in the north London Borough of Harringay borders the orthodox Jewish area in Stamford Hill. At a meeting of the local Labour party last month they discussed the problem of street prostitution "The only reason there are prostitutes in the ward is because of the Jews" said one member, not a murmur reported one senior Harringay councillor. When I read that my feeling was that no other ethnicity would be besmirched in such a way and so casually without it being challenged.

lemongrove Thu 08-Mar-18 12:40:43

Yes, we all know the difference on GN thanks mostlyharmless

lemongrove Thu 08-Mar-18 12:43:01

terribull that’s just outrageous!
If that had been said of Christians or Muslims...... can you imagine?!

GracesGranMK2 Thu 08-Mar-18 13:08:00

So was this person prosecuted on the evidence which you are saying was witnessed by many Terribull? And do you see the Times as the friend of Labour?

If it happened it could have been reported and the police involved but the Times likes trial by the judgemental who don't really know if it happened or not.

I would be more prepared to accept this as true if you had referenced the article in the Times otherwise it could be completely made up - couldn't it.

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