Just listened to a radio piece on this awful attack on the Russian spy and his daughter in which 21 people were affected. one suggestion why these attacks are carried out in the UK was that the response of the UK in the past e.g. Litvinyenko has been weak, so whoever carries out such attacks has no fear of comeback. What can the UK do? Boycott the World Cup?
Anyone know the shelf life of the precursor ingredients for the Novichok agents?
People are assuming this stuff can hang around for 30 years in a lock-up garage outside Vladivostock and then be whipped up in a hotel room in Salisbury to kill people.
I've never made it myself, but it's unlikely to be comparable to a box of cake mix.
Still, none of those doubting the analysis put forward by the UK government have stated why the Russian Government reacted with a media blitz of mocking, disparaging and insulting remarks against the British people and especially those injured and caught up in the Salisbury attack.
This attack happened on UK soil without any provocation whatsoever. The reaction of Putin and those surrounding him give a very strong indication of that regime's involvement I and others in this tread believe
If the above is not the case then those who feel that Putin and his cronies are not involved, please state the case, why they did react with such a media tirade against this country and its people after such an attack.
Many of one line postings above just seem to be deflections in not answering that question which has now been asked over any number of pages within this topic
I agree with you on the Russian response Grandad. I could even understand one stance for Putin at home with some behind the scenes cooperation here if they were not involved.
It's called saving face and is to do with the forthcoming election, Putin has to appear as the strong man standing up to British imperialism. This concept that he is somehow not playing the game is so British, why on earth should he?
Grandad calm down. No-one has to answer your questions which remain unanswered “over any number of pages” and why should they? Obviously nobody on Gransnet, not even you, know who carried out the attack or how, or even why. All we can do is speculate. We should try to keep an open mind and not jump to conclusions before all the evidence is available.
Quote[ mostlyharmless
Grandadcalm down. No-one has to answer your questions which remain unanswered “over any number of pages” and why should they? Obviously nobody on Gransnet, not even you, know who carried out the attack or how, or even why. All we can do is speculate. We should try to keep an open mind and not jump to conclusions before all the evidence is available.]End Quote
mostlyharmless, this is not about the attack, it is about balanced debate. Those who challenge the views of others in any walk of life, then should be prepared to answer returning challenges in regard to their own views or their questioning is not worth the paper or bandwidth had taken to produce it.
In the above, Primrose, myself and others have answered many questions in regard to our support for the British government position over any number of pages in this thread. In the foregoing we have asked only one paramount question in our responding fully to questions. That Question to the "doubters" and "conspiracy theorists" remains unanswered.
Taken to its ultimate conclusion the above situation would result in any thread developing into a series of disconnected posts in regard to any subject as no one would respond to any other forum member's thinking or question (LOL)
Therefore, those who seek to join any conversation or debate in any part of life (including this forum) should be prepared to answer questions. That's how Iife works and intelligent debate and conversation take place.
Grandad1943 It does help in any discussion if you actually read others posts instead of just pontificating and asking questions about things which have already been discussed. For example I posted abot Putin's motive some time ago and for all intents and purposes he is the Russian Gov.
All the evidence is not available to us. However, more may be known than is in the public domain. The whole field of espionage and security is full of covert means of finding things out, which if revealed would also expose those who passed on the information to a fate very similar to the one met by Sergei Skripal and his daughter.
An interesting development -
"Russian businessman Nikolai Glushkov . . . . was found dead at his home in New Malden on 12 March.
A post-mortem examination revealed Mr Glushkov, who was 68, died from "compression to the neck".
Mr Glushkov also had a close friendship with fellow Russian businessman Boris Berezovsky, who came to the UK in 1999 after falling out with Mr Putin.
. . . counter-terrorism police are investigating this murder - normally it would be done by a homicide team. Scotland Yard says that is being done as a precaution because of his associations - he was a friend of Mr Berezovsky, who died in slightly mysterious circumstances, and Mr Glushkov said before he died he not believe his friend's death was a suicide.
Reading all the guff from Russian apologists ( not to mention Corbyn apologists) makes me wonder what on earth this country would face, with JC at the helm if we ever really did have serious problems to deal with.
How ever you describe those whose opinions you disagree with, what the country would have, should we have a Corbyn lead Labour Government, would be a democratically elected government, nothing more, nothing less.
Still, none of those doubting the analysis put forward by the UK government ...
Who is doubting the analysis Grandad? Personally I am happy to know what the analysis was should it be given to all of us. I wasn't. What we had was May's summary. As both sides in parliament accepted it - and I presume had seen it - I am prepared to accept that part of what she said. What was obvious is that the LP had not been given all the information, which is why Corbyn asked questions. They are the countries official opposition; it is their job to ask the questions. What I do not want to happen is people jumping to conclusions because of summary of results. That is very different from "doubting the analysis".
There are those in this thread that clearly still question the direct involvement of the Russian state in the Salisbury attack and it is quite correct that they should if they have genuine concerns.
I can’t see that anyone on this thread is dismissing the possibility of Russian State involvement Grandad.
But the extend of Russian involvement is still not clear. Nobody can forget the unfounded rumours of chemical weapons or “WMD” that led to a declaration of war on Iraq.
Quote trisher
Grandad1943It does help in any discussion if you actually read others posts instead of just pontificating and asking questions about things which have already been discussed. For example I posted abot Putin's motive some time ago and for all intents and purposes he is the Russian Gov.] End A
Apologies trisher as I was about to respond to your post at 17:25 today (16/03/18) But tea got in the way. However you state in that post that :-
Quote It's called saving face and is to do with the forthcoming election, Putin has to appear as the strong man standing up to British imperialism. This concept that he is somehow not playing the game is so British, why on earth should he? End Quote
In the above, Putin would be not only addressing a British audience, but also international media, therefore respect should be forthcoming if only to that audience.
In that we have been asked to accept in this thread that all should consider that the Russian Government may not have been responsible for the Salisbury attack and other groups should be considered however unlikely that may appear. However, if the Russian government cannot act responsibly in its communications with the world in regard to the attack, why should anyone consider suggestions that the same government would act responsibly in not carrying out the Salisbury attack.
The above is not about "being British" it is about responsible communication and respect if you wish the world to believe your account of events. That Stated, perhaps Putin does not really want the world to believe his regime had nothing to do with the incident, that being the truth?
Grandad1943 I opted about Putin's motives first on Friday. Plenty of time for you to reply but you only listen when it suits you.
The "Being British" is about the expectations that people will behave a certain way, because that's how we would.
If Putin lost the election the respect of every country in the world would not matter to him.
actually Trisher I have no expectations about how "being british" is..in fact I think British government is and has been just as shady and despicable as any other on earth...and sometimes far worse .I certainly wouldn't put it past the current shower of reprobates to use this "attack" as a distraction from the mess they are making of things ...a very convenient distraction .I certainly remember the WMD fiasco ..the "sudden death" of Robin Cook and Dr Kelly amongst others so I wouldn't ever take what Mrs May or any other incumbent of WM says as gospel truth .
What was obvious is that the LP had not been given all the information, which is why Corbyn asked questions.
I disagree. The LP could have been given all the information available. Asking questions doesn't indicate that information was withheld at all.
He also had the choice to ask questions publically or privately. He chose publically. The only obvious thing is that he wanted to ask questions that could not be answered publically. If a particular analysis was done, if they were able to identify the production facility, what conversations have been had with the UN, Nato, etc.
He was just trying to score points.
Why would Corbyn ask questions privately of the most open government ever?
You could ask, "why did he ask publicly?" Questions are asked in Parliament for more reasons than to get information.
The best question to ask is “what does Corbyn get out of not agreeing with the government and just about every other MP in Parliament” ?
What does he get out of not being prepared to put on a united front against this outrage?
I doubt he even knows himself why......just that he has been a rebel and a one man protest rally about anything and everything for forty years.He can’t stop now!
Grandad1943 Fri 16-Mar-18 14:08:06
I agree Grandad
A terrorist group is not likely to target a single Russian spy (and his daughter who presumably is just 'collateral', poor young woman).
What would their reason be?
Everyone is guessing. As far as I am aware no-one posting on GN has seen all the evidence and information which has been collected so none of us are in possession of all the facts. The evidence would have been presented to the various international bodies who have come out in support of the UK's reaction.
Absolutely right OldWoman - governments often do not disclose the full facts and therefore, possibly, their sources of information which could jeopardise future intelligence-gathering.
There will always be 'conspiracy theories' by those who dislike their governments.
n fact I think British government is and has been just as shady and despicable as any other on earth...and sometimes far worse
Worse than Venuzualen government, worse than Syrian government, worse than so many worldwide?
Astonishing.
And I don't think they are going to publish state secrets in the Daily Mail and the Guardian any time soon for our edification.
I remember the Russian stance of dismissing the OPCW when it comes to Syria.
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-syria-chemical-weapons-attack-sarin-un-resolution-china-moscow-assad-rebels-war-latest-a8017511.html
Russia vetoes UN resolution to find out who carried out chemical weapons attacks in Syria
Mandate for investigation by the UN and the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons due to expire in November---
www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/25/syria-chemical-attack-investigation-russia-opcw
Russian officials accuse Organisation for Prohibition of Chemical Weapons of siding with the west after rejecting plan to reinvestigate evidence of sarin gas
----
I honestly believe if the OPCW declared Russia guilty of anything they would not agree with the outcome .
Skripal and his daughter and their next of kin, Detective Sergeant Nick Bailey, Alexander Litvinenko, Nikolai Glushkov, Boris Nemtsov, Alexei Navalny, so many 'incidents' to be challenged. Syria, the elimination of any credible opposition for the Presidential Election alone should be a major concern surely.
We are all guessing about a lot of things but some things seem very much more likely than others to be true. I thinkTheresa May was almost certainly right when she said either the Russian government was directly responsible or indirectly responsible because they lost control of this lethal nerve agent.
The other thing which is almost certainly true is that Russia manipulated the brexit vote to destabalise the West.
I wonder if Russia ' meddled ' the UK General Election in 2015.
Why not if it can be said of the EU Referendum, German Elections, US Election ?
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