Corbyn's Elasticity

Ah well, so be it, however, others have been accused of derailing other threads by introducing other topics.

Jalima1108, Anniebach, it is called bringing Ballance to a discussion. I am just pointing out that racism does not only exist in the Labour party.

Anything else would be denial, which is exactly what some in this thread are accusing the Labour members off.

I am sure we are all interested and worried about peoples who are being wiped out today but this thread is about Corbyn.

Someone started a thread about the Rohingya Muslims - perhaps that should be revived because it is ongoing too and is something which is shocking - the persecution of a minority group.

And I can understand why it is Smileless but it is still a dangerous path the tread when you make laws like this. The further we get away from the actual happening the more likely you would be to get the rise of a party who wish to use such a law to justify perhaps just the opposite. The rise of a far right party in Germany could make a law that the holocaust may not be referred to for instance.

Even you must see there is a reason why Germany might make such a law as part of their incitement to hatred laws. Generally the countries which ban Holocaust denial were among the perpetrators of the Holocaust. It is understandable that not only do they not want a repeat of this but they want to be seen not allowing such things.

I thing we could do far more by education than by laws such as this. That is what we achieved in Germany after the war.

Scholars have pointed out that countries that specifically ban Holocaust denial generally have legal systems that limit speech in other ways, such as banning "hate speech". According to D. D. Guttenplan, this is a split between the "common law countries of the United States, Ireland and many British Commonwealth countries from the civil law countries of continental Europe and Scotland. In civil law countries the law is generally more proscriptive. Also, under the civil law regime, the judge acts more as an inquisitor, gathering and presenting evidence as well as interpreting it". Michael Whine argues that Holocaust denial can inspire violence against Jews; he states, "Jews' experience in the post-World War II era suggests that their rights are best protected in open and tolerant democracies that actively prosecute all forms of racial and religious hatred ".

And what about the other racial and religious hatred of today? Have you no interest in the races and religions that have been/are being wiped out today, simply because of who they are?

I'm sure lots of LP members will be looking forward to experiencing Momentums comprehensive political re-education programs ww
Doesn't sound at all sinister. Are there any other political parties who decided that re-education of the masses was a necessity?
Hilarious that Momentum feels that their supporters don't know 'how society works' and are into conspiracy theories. Oh well. You have to work with what you have, I suppose.

Turn any critcism of Corbyn onto the Tory party, denial at it's best, or should it be at it's worse

Would you like to start a thread about that Grandad, as this is primarily a Corbyn thread and apparently it is frowned upon to try to de-rail threads.
Or so I have learned since being on GN.

Well, for those who wish to expose that which is repugnant, then little is more repugnant that the actions of these conservatives.

In March 2017 Britain's oldest Conservative think-tank "the Bow Group" was severely criticised after inviting to its anniversary celebration the right-wing "Traditional Britain Group", which has called for the repatriation of UK black people to their "natural homelands."

The mediahad obtained an email circulated to members of the far-right Traditional Britain Group, informing them that they have been granted a special concession. The email reads "They [the Bow Group] have kindly extended to Traditional Britain Group members a discount to join either the reception or the reception plus the 3 course dinner, and was signed by the Traditional Britain Group vice-president Gregory Lauder-Frost who Jacob Rees-Mogg had sat next to at an earlier dinner.

The Traditional Britain Group describes itself on its website as "home to the disillusioned patriot" and has called for non-whites to be repatriated and has over a number of years provided many platforms for prominent white nationalists to address its conferences. Lauder-Frost was previously chairman of the foreign affairs policy committee of the Conservative Parliamentary Monday Club, a pressure group within the Tory party that has only recently been criticized by Senior Tory members following press attention in regard to their views on race in the UK

Labour MP Louise Haigh, has received death threats after calling for far-right groups Britain First and The Traditional Britain group to be banned. Louise Haugh has advised that globally conservative centre thinking is being hijacked by hard right nationalists who sense a once-in-a lifetime opportunity to make their repugnant, prejudiced views mainstream due to the current small size of many Conservative organization memberships. In the foregoing many may well be that the British conservative party was foremost in her mind

Louise Haigh has also stated that calling on brilliant, courageous women like Doreen Lawrence to be repatriated their "natural homeland" is totally repugnant. These are the views of white nationalists and should never be normalised. Rather than inviting them to their anniversary bash, the Bow Group should treat the people who hold these views with the contempt they deserve."

Of course the above has not been reported prominently in the Daily Mail, The Sun, The Daily Express or the Times.

A message from momentum

pbs.twimg.com/media/DZyLPrzX0AAIEgb?format=jpg

primrose
Thank you for the Independant link.
The sub heading is scathing:
A light has been shone into the darkness but it has not served as disinfectant. It has guided these creeping things out into the open

Well under German law GG holocaust denial constitutes a crime and carries a sentence of up to 5 years in jail. So perhaps we should take it as seriously as they do.

That said, something doesn't have to be illegal to be contemptible and IMO denying the holocaust reeks of contempt.

Smileless2012 and part of racism is the Klu Klux Klan but I doubt if any of us are really discussing such extremism are we?
I think Eleothan's question is probably one asked by young people. They can see the suffering of the Palestinian people and think they can do something about it. Other horrific events are historic for them. That doesn't mean they should be forgotten but the present is always more important for the young.
bmacca What a great statement and from so many academics.

So what would you do about that denial Smileless? Make it illegal to say such a thing?

"And why is anti-semitism any more awful than other types of racisim". It isn't Eleothan, all racism is awful.

That said, during the holocaust, I'm sure they'd have preferred to have been discriminated against regarding housing, employment and the justice system to being lined up in front of open mass graves to be shot or marched into gas chambers.

Part of the anti-semitism rhetoric is the denial of the holocaust; the denial that millions of men, women and children were murdered just because they were Jews.

More from academics:
"It I s not “whataboutery” to suggest that the debate on antisemitism has been framed in such a way as to mystify the real sources of anti-Jewish bigotry and instead to weaponise it against a single political figure just ahead of important elections. We condemn antisemitism wherever it exists. We also condemn journalism that so blatantly lacks context, perspective and a meaningful range of voices in its determination to condemn Jeremy Corbyn"
www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/02/stop-jeremy-corbyns-trial-by-media-over-antisemitism?CMP=share_btn_link

I'm sick of all this Corbyn and Labour left bashing. The country's in one hell of a mess - with an 9 out of 30 children per classroom reported as being deprived of proper food and clothing, the justice system is on its knees with the Legal Aid system falling apart, the hospitals are at crisis point because social care is severely underfunded, the police force has been significantly reduced, along with its morale, London has just been reported as having higher murder rates than New York - and, with elections imminent, all the press can talk about is Corbyn and anti-semitism.

And why is anti-semitism any more awful than other types of racism? I feel sure Jewish people do not suffer the sort of discrimination in housing, employment, education and the justice system that other minority groups experience.

I wonder if the Sunday Times scrutinised the content of any Conservative MPs'/ministers' Facebook/other social network pages.

Yggdrasil, you are right. Of course these issues must be dealt with and dealt with more quickly than they have been.

Who, though, is going to deal with the FB members who are not members of the Labour Party or of Momentum? This is also, but not only, a problem of social media.

He's often involved with causes where he doesn't have 'the power or the right' to interfere though. And that's great because he has influence and he lends credibility.

We know, from a horrific US presidential election and its aftermath, what it is like when a mainstream, leading political figure has his position consolidated and protected by a drone army of cultists, conspiracy theorists and straightforward racists.

Corbyn is now seen as the Trump of UK politics.
From the Independent.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-antisemitism-jeremy-corbyn-christine-shawcroft-protest-alan-bull-a8285051.html

lemongrove The buck stops at the top ( Corbyn)....all the time since he became leader he has been weak, letting others get away with doing and saying anything and when asked about something like antisemitism says ‘Oh I don’t condone that!’ Whilst doing zilch to stop it.Now he has been left no choice at all but to actually do something.

He isn't a dictator. He believes in democracy. In some cases he has been charged with not doing things, he didn't actually have the power or right to interfere.

I will not reply to posts where people lie about what I have said.

I'm on Facebook. I am in several groups, but I don't see all the posts in any of them except the two I have marked as priority for me. RB decides what you see unless you make it very clear

You do know that Corbyn posted in those groups don't you? The point about moderating is a good one GGMk2. Corbyn was invited in by the admin in one group and he had plenty of chats with her about all sorts of unrelated stuff. She was posting massively anti-semitic things. So it's not quite a random stranger when you've invited them to parliament for a meeting, discussed poetry and holiday snaps.
Why are you making out it's these random strangers? Have you just dismissed the reports as smears because you have not bothered to read them?

It just occurred to me that should we reproduce some of the things Terribull posted (and I know they were from other places) this thread would seem to be pretty awful.

I agree Trisher. Of the groups I am on one has 3,000 members the others are in the hundreds and I certainly do not manage to read all the posts - although because they are subjects I am very interested in I would like to be able to. As a member of those groups I have no powers of moderation any more than I would on here. Thankfully I will not (I believe) be accused of "guilt by association" with some of the posts that have appeared on here or the other forum I occasionally posted on. No one would be that stupid - surely?

was Corbyn truthful when he said he did not clearly see the anti Semitic mural yet supported the artist with a post - Rockafeller destroyed a mural of Lenin.