Syria - what can be done

Lemongrove.....Anybody who is a member of CND or a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn will no doubt be up in arms, if you will excuse the pun, over the UK and France and the US for daring to send missiles to destroy labs, and military facilities in Syria in order to stop Assad (ably assisted by Iran and Russia) making more chemicals to drop onto civilians including children and babies.

It's not just members of CND or supporters of Jeremy Corbyn who are against the action taken. If Assad et al did gas innocent people (and that's not be proven yet because the action was taken before the inspectors could go in) then how does dropping bombs and killing more innocents solved the problem. Two wrongs don't make a right.

And if we're going down the track of powerful countries supporting/supplying less powerful countries remember that we sell arms to Saudi Arabia which are in turn used to kill innocents in Yemen and/or passed on to ISIS. We and the other countries that messed up Iraq were responsible for the rise of ISIS and are now arming them with the very weapons they use against us.

We can pretend that we care about innocents in other countries but do we really? It wouldn't appear so if you think how we treat the refugees. We intervene for our own purposes...usually to do with oil atm. Iraq and Libya weren't perfect places to live by any means but the people had food, clean water, education, health care etc. Now the countries are wrecks but it's OK because we or the US now control the oil.

The arms trade has nothing to do with supporting the 'right' side and everything to do with making money. Intervention has nothing to do with protecting the innocent and everything to do with oil. If that isn't the case why didn't/don't we intervene in Rwanda, Myanmar and a host of other countries where the people were/are denied freedom or the right to live in peace.

Exactly niggly , no one who sells chemicals can be held responsible if they are used but not for the purpose they were manufactured and sold for

I have many Scottish friends who say just as paddyann- the mood in Scotland is somber and furious, more than ever- since the strikes- as it puts them right in the centre of the target. I totally get how they feel. A vote for independence tomorrow would probably win with a substantial majority.

I fear even more for anyone who lives or is based in Cyprus- I certainly would nOT consider a holiday there now.

Iam64 you question the ethical and morality aspect of the recent missile strikes.Really?!
I question the ethical and morality aspect of gassing women children and babies who are hiding in basements.
I put this way ahead of any ‘legality’ and any other technicality.The missile strikes have happened, and although of course Assad will win the war, I doubt there will be any more use of gas.

In any case, it seems that it was entirely legal.

No bombs were dropped that killed ‘innocents’ vq have you not been following events?

I think it has just been proved that we do care about innocents to conduct the missile strikes to take away some of the capabilities and resolve of Assad/Russia/Iran to continue gassing the Syrian people.

Oh lemongrove if only things were so simple. By acting without proper investigation or proper authorisation the UK have once again linked themselves with the US and will suffer the consequences. I would imagine there are even now in the Middle East people incensed that western powers have once again interfered, people who will regard the bombing as yet another example of western imperialism. They probably also believe the Russian assertion that the UK was responsible for the gas attack. The idea that there will be no come back because it was a single act is ludicrous. It was hastily done, once again with no thought for what happens afterwards.

You are right trisher - the consequences do not bear thinking about. Actions without thought for the long term and a real analysis of what might actually achieve the desired aim are just plain wrong.

The actions of Friday night will not achieve the desired aim and are likely to have unfortunate consequences for the world.

This does not mean I do not wholeheartedly condemn the use of chemical weapons (or the trade that supports this) but I do not think these actions will achieve the desired aim; and I do not think they should have gone ahead without parliamentary support.

The translation of what Dr. Husam Hamdan from #EastGhouta wrote, so please help posting or publishing it:

Milk with Blood

Today is the 6th day for the bloody genocidal campaign against half million people in Damascene Eastern Ghouta.
Omran .... A boy spent quarter of his life living under the horror of Ghouta’s resurrection . Despite the fake truce that all world leaders failed to make it happen, and to stop the daily massacres are committed with civilians.
Omran ... is a 40 days infant. At one moment , and one explosive barrel fell down from the same sky where the leaders of the world were gathered to adopt a #truce saving the remnants of their humanity.
At this moment Omran lost his whole family, therefore he was brought to the surgery medical check piont , not because of a physical injury, but his calamity is that he lost his life by losing his mother, father, home, and neighborhood. They could take him nowhere after they drove him out of the rubble of his house.
We stood around him helpless listening to his yells and cries.
We put him on the injured bed, but his injury is deeper and bigger than the whole world.
We got back to our wounded homeland with dozens of its fellow countrymen.
Between working on helping wounded civilians ,doing surgeries, and receiving families who were saved from their destroyed houses- each family has their terrifying story about these black evil barrels ; the same black as the hearts of who threw them from sky.
We forgot Omran and ourselves till we heard his crying from a distance. The nurse said that he must be hungry and need some milk. I started to wonder how would I get him milk under this heavy shelling coming from the sky and burning roads full of death?? Though the world leaders were waiting for these monsters to finish their mission of killing all these innocent people, we searched around for some milk, but didn’t find.
We were told that sugar liquid would be useful during these circumstances .
We gave, but he refused. Even though we put it in the milk bottle, he was still refusing, and kept crying.
While we were having a discussion either to open one of his veins and put nutrient solution, or to put a tube in his nose to his stomach to feed him.
We were told that another family was injured and had been brought to medical check point. We ran to help them to find out that the mother Feryal lost her husband, little baby , and her right limbs. We hardly stopped the bleeding quickly ,and closed the injury that the world left for her while it’s leaders were gathering.
We got back to Omran who broke our hearts with his screaming that we wished the whole world could listen to.
Suddenly , a brilliant idea came into our colleagues’ mind that we couldn’t think about before because of the huge amount of blood that was covering our patients bodies.
Feryal!!! The woman who lost everything is still able to give something!! It’s her breast milk!!
Yes!!!!!
It’s her martyr baby’s milk that is still in her bleeding breast!!!
Without thinking, one of the nurses ran to her to clean her chaste breast to put Omran next to her so she can breastfeed him.
Few seconds passed to have Omran quietly drinking her milk.
That moment when I felt as if the whole world was quiet. I stopped hearing the sounds of the explosive barrels , the war planes, and statements of denunciation in the corridors of the Security Council. I stopped hearing the bereaved mothers and injured cries.
I felt that this pure milk that calmed this orphan down is stronger than all leaders and kings who were gathered that night.
Nurses told us that the mother ,who was in coma , woke up the moment they put him on her breast . Holding him soothed her pains and broken heart.
Yes , world , leaders , and all human beings who live out there !!!
Yes, humanity that we were told it was in all people’s hearts.
Yes!!!
This milk that was out of all these injuries, blood, and rubble was able to save Omran while all of you failed to save him.
You allowed killing him by letting explosive barrels kill his whole family.
You killed Feryal when you turned your backs away from your humanity and allowed massacres to be repeated in East Ghouta.
I’m standing now next to Omran after he fell asleep because he is not hungry anymore.
I now ask you with whatever you believe in!!!
Why????!!!!
Why do you allow all of these innocent people to be murdered while you are watching them on TV??!!!
How are you going to explain this to your kids one day when they read the history of these massacres ???!!
How can you look at your people’s faces??!!
Bosna’s and Rounda’s massacres are repeated in front of your eyes!!! Why would you approve this????!!!!
What have Omran and Feryal done???
Did they steal your oil???!!!
Did they ask you to share them your wealth???!!!

All they wanted is a life with dignity and freedom. A life you pretended that it’s the bright image of your civilization.

Therefore don’t #SaveGhouta , but save your civilization and humanity.

Dr. Husam Hamdan

⁦‪#EastGhouta‬⁩
‎
‎⁧‫

"Why do you allow all of these innocent people to be murdered while you are watching them on TV?"

Because there is nothing, just nothing we can do - we are not "allowing" this - we are simply powerless to stop it.

Every action we might take could lead to more innocent deaths.

Who is "you" in this context?

We are all horrified and frustrated by the absence of a solution.

Yes, we are; these are the words of a doctor trying to save patients in Eastern Ghouta, feeling abandoned by the world.

I have my first granddaughter, she is 3 days old. Her parents, grandparents, extended family are all of course, totally delighted. She is well, her mother is well, her parents and older siblings are in love with her.
Without exception, family members have talked about what's happening in Syria and acknowledged that our precious baby is no different than babies in Syria. None of us support the bombing on Friday. We all question its purpose and any longer term plan.
We live in an area with a large Muslim community. We are well aware that generalising, the Muslim community in the Uk and other European countries see the involvement of the Us/Uk/other European countries in simple terms, as an assault on Muslims.
I simply cannot believe that TM and her cabinet sat round a table and decided to "attack Muslims in Syria". Equally, I can't believe they didn't consider the impact of their decision. How many will die, how many missiles won't land where they're supposed to? What will the Syrian people see as the purpose of our actions. Why now? Why not wait for the international investigation into who used the chemical weapons etc.
I remain very distressed and in fact, angry, by the action this Cabinet took - it was not in my name.

Jura2 - I live in Scotland and probably have many more friends, neighbours and colleagues than, with respect, you do. The mood in Scotland is not, in my experience, somber and furious. Except amongst supporters of the SNP and they will use any means to draw attention to their only aim - independence from the rest of the UK.

Luckygirl you say ‘because there is nothing we can do’
Au contraire, we have just done something to help.
If the Assad regime doesn’t now use any more gas on his own people then that was a worthwhile thing to do.
If Putin realises that the West will not tolerate the use of chemical weapons anywhere, then that was a worthwhile thing to do.
Iam64
‘Attack Muslims in Syria’? There are no casualties from the missile strikes.
If the West constantly worries about ‘what Muslims think’
Even when they are actually being helped, it would be a poor look out.
The people who say we should not have done anything to help because there may be ‘consequences’ have a strange outlook on life, read the above post from Jalima see the frightened children on tv, and seriously think about your own reactions.
The missiles didn’t go astray and kill anybody, they hit their intended targets.
Imagine your three day old DGC suffering from a chemical
Weapons attack, you would want countries to step in and say ‘no more’.
France, the UK and the US did the ‘right’ thing.

Of course Overthehills- I have never lived in Scotland and only visited once (Trossachs, Sky and Mull- it was beautiful). And yes, we tend to associate with like minded people- in this case lots of Europhile remainers who tend to be SNP. So I was quoting what many have been saying this week-end.

And yes, they do want to Remain in EU and separate from Brexit UK, and also totally against the strikes on Syria. And I can't say I blame them- although personally I'd like the UK to remain together (and remain - double remain..)

How interesting that there are so many SNP supporters, and of course Europhile Remainers among the expats in Switzerland
However, on the whole I for one would be more likely to trust the evidence of Scots in Scotland as quoted by overthehills. I think we are aware of how expats can be “plus anglais que les Anglais” or in this case “plus écossais que les Écossais”!

Worried about consequences?! Well, then we must be realistic and leave all those people to get on with it and stop pretending to be appalled, and talking about red lines and political solutions which are like fairy dust. Assad is a monster, but so long as it doesn't actually affect us, it's ok to pontificate about, express horror about, but god forbid offering any sort of help that might even remotely be adverse to us on a personal level! Poor baby orphan Omran, probably dead by now, but hey ho, we're horrified, but not affected, so that's ok!!!

Well said NigglyNellie ??

No nigglynellie, I hope I am realistic. If our government had taken this action after a debate in Parliament and the independent evidence confirmed what we believe, that Assad used chemical weapons on his own people, I'd have supported targeted action.

Offering help is not sending missiles to destroy more of the infrastructure. Offering help could be taking in the refugees, investing more in refugee camps, allowing a proper investigation and acting when the results are known, after a proper vote in parliament. Demonstrating that we give proper regard to international law, even if others don't . The idea that those of us who believe there should not have been a missile strike do not care about the dying children is totally inaccurate. We do care, but we also realise this action is unlikely to have any positive long term effects and may make things worse.
But carry on feeling self-satisfied niggly perhaps that's why Mrs May did what she did, to make herself feel better.

He has used it already, many, many times Iam and those times it was authenticated.

Yes lemon, I'm not arguing about that. I'm expressing concern that a Cabinet in a government with a wafer thin majority has taken action without consulting parliament, and it seems, against the wishes of the majority of the voters.

The infrastructure you seem worried about trisher were military/ labs.
Russia vetoed any independent investigations.
International law has been adhered to, as it was humanitarian need that prompted the missile strikes.

The wishes of voters are immaterial in any scenario ( military) and the government is always able to act quickly when needed and not consult Parliament.