Regret it Brexit?

Having read what Katya Adler said she gave no reasons at all as to why they would think that.

smileless2012, complete agreement with you.

allyg:
MaizieD Lets not get party political lets stick with Brexit.

Maizie was making the point that Brexit is a political issue. You can’t separate the past of the North East, or any other part of the U.K., from politics. Be it Margaret Thatcher’s destruction of the mining and steel industries or Cameron’s austerity programmes.

To see Brexit in isolation from the politics of the last few decades is to not understand the context.

Whether it’s Conservative Party members or voters is irrelevant, it’s still a party political issue.

Mostlyharmless No one has said that Brexit is to be seen in isolation of the politics of over seventy years since the formation of the UN and ECSC and into the Common Market and the EU and EEA. These were economic, social political and technological decisions. Mainly led by the problems of post WW1 and WW2 fall out mainly on main land Europe.

The referendum was not a party political issue. At the point of decision (the referendum vote) it was a social, and economic one essentially.

There were politicians and activist from all political party's working together to support either leave or remain campaigns. This mirrored itself in the electorate.

My point to Maizie is that it is not just a Conservative issue. The ECSC plus Labour Governments have been instrumental in the destruction of Iron,Coal and Steel Industries.

In 1978 Europe was starting to uncouple the industry from decades of price floors and output quotas, as a result the UK steel industry and other ECSC member countries had the same experience. We went through a wave of closures that took the workforce from 668,000 after the war to around 130,000.

This painful overhaul paved the way for the British Steel Corporation to be privatised on the stock market in 1988, only for it to merge with its Dutch rival to form Corus in 1999 as it struggled to make ends meet.

By the time the Indian conglomerate Tata took over the business for £4.3bn in 2006, it had around 48,000 employees worldwide. Since then, the Indian firm has written down more than £5bn in lost value as it tried to repair the business.

It's much to do with the ECSC no longer needing the steel and coal industries to control mainly Germany, along with France, Italy and Spain.

Whole communities, socially, economically and politically were affected in Britain and across Europe some more than others.

We just know more about the background to all this now.
I do understand what you say about the NE and other parts of the North. People have long memories and rightly so.

It is just important that we know the background better rather than just blaming the Conservatives. It was much bigger than one Government or one party.

Welsh wife

"As I said before he did not say an amalgamated military force but one where each state had their own specialities and a working together - much as they do more - but at the moment almost every state tries to replicate things - it has been pointed out that this is watering things down rather than concentrating expertise. "

What do you think about PESCO?
----
" It would take a big shift as far as the banks go and this idea has probably got to do with Brexit because the U.K. will no longer be able to be the clearing house for the Euro as it is now. "

I don't think Junker was thinking about Brexit . I think Junker has had held the view of more / full economic agreement between the member states of the EU prior to Brexit.

You can't ignore the party political reasons Cameron had for calling the referendum.

I think you place too much importance on Junker, POGS. He may have visions of a degree of EU integration which worries some people but he will only achieve what is politically possible. Which means he has to take 27/28 sovereign countries along with him. I very much doubt if they all share his 'vision' or that they would co-operate in implementing it.

He only has 2 more years to go of his five year presidency (and was not really anyone's choice in the first place so why would they fall over backwards to further his vision?). Can you point to anything he has really achieved in the past three years (apart from being a convenient monster with which to scare UK voters into voting Leave)?

allyg I see you are using a long quote from a Telegraph article from two years ago.
It would be very helpful (and more honest) if you acknowledged your sources.

For me, voting Leave had nothing to do with party politics. It was to do with sovereignty both in 1975 and 2016. For my friends and family, who are split, it was not related to party politics.

Of course, we had a Referendum because of party politics but the Second Reading of the Bill passed with a thumping majority with only SNP as a party objecting. Labour, having campaigned against a Referendum, supported the Referendum Bill. Sadly, no MP that I could find, whether Leave or Remain, suggested that preparations should be made for either outcome before the vote. Given the level of euro-scepticism in the country from the 1960's onwards, and particularly after the Credit crunch, one would have thought this an imperative.

The Leave vote was 53.4% in England, spread over much of the country, highest in the Midlands, North and East of England. The highest Remain area was Scotland where, nevertheless, 38% voted Leave.

If there was a particular economic factor affecting the vote, I suspect it was The Credit Crunch in 2008. There were, though, many reasons why people voted Leave (as with Remain voters) but ultimately, we were only given the choice: to Leave or Remain in the EU.

In Italy, the new coalition which is causing concern in Brussels and in bond markets, perhaps also had its roots in the Crunch and the reported fact that ever since joining the euro, Italy's average growth has been zero.

The banking crisis in 2008 was no better reason for voting Leave than any other. It was nothing to do with the EU though the neo-liberal economic theory which permitted it also underpinned the EU's treatment of Greece and I know that many people disapproved strongly of that treatment.

However, I would suspect that this was an emotional rather than an informed response on the part of Leave voters as, in my experience, relatively few people have any real knowledge or understanding of economics. As evidenced by the fact that they keep on voting for the tories who, as a result of their adherence to neo-liberal monetary theory, have imposed their damaging austerity programme since 2015. (Party politics will inevitably inform responses to the Leave vote, I'm afraid.)

The Euro is widely acknowledged by economists as having been a mistake; thankfully we never joined it and so have full control of our economic policy.(And Cameron had obtained agreement from the EU that the UK would never be obliged to join it) Mistake though it was, the UK financial sector has done extremely well out of it by way of being the central clearing agency for the euro.

I'm sure just as many informed voters opted to leave as to stay Mazie and I think it's reasonable to say that there would have been emotional reasons on both sides.

In my experience there are plenty who have an understanding of economics and voting Conservative is not evidence to the contrary.

Definitely believe we voted on emotion, scaremongering
half truths & patrionism, how could we not,no one knew ,it was pushed through on beliefs ,assumptions & suppositions,
We certainly did not have enough factual information to make such an important choice. Don’t even mention’ where is he now MR F.’

Mostlyharmless "allyg I see you are using a long quote from a Telegraph article from two years ago.
It would be very helpful (and more honest) if you acknowledged your sources."

Mostlyharmless, please note the original posting below and an acknowledgement that parts were copied.

Allygran1 Thu 17-May-18 00:17:22
"Maisie my point is that it is not just a Conservative issue. The ECSC plus Labour Governments have been instrumental in the destruction of Iron,Coal and Steel Industries.

"In the 1978 Europe starting to uncouple the industry from decades of price floors and output quotas, as a result the UK steel industry and other ECSC member countries had the same experience. We went through a wave of closures that took the workforce from 668,000 after the war to around 130,000.

This painful overhaul paved the way for the British Steel Corporation to be privatised on the stock market in 1988, only for it to merge with its Dutch rival to form Corus in 1999 as it struggled to make ends meet.

By the time the Indian conglomerate Tata took over the business for £4.3bn in 2006, it had around 48,000 employees worldwide. Since then, the Indian firm has written down more than £5bn in lost value as it tried to repair the business.

It's much to do with the ECSC. As was cheap coal from Germany under the ECSC instrumental in the closure of our mines."

We just know more about the background to all this now.
I do understand what you say about the NE and other parts of the North people have long memories and rightly so. It is just important that we know the background better than just blaming the Conservatives.
I will send you the link for the parts of this I have copied tomorrow."

Mostlyharmless, as you can see from the above, there was acknowledgement that part of the post had been copied.

Just a note here. I would prefer it, when addressing your remarks to me that you do not use terms that can be taken as defamatory. The cloak of anonymity on this site is neither impervious or intended to offer people cover to use derogatory comments at will.

There is a fine line between rude and aggressive or abrasive language styles in print and defamatory remarks of which "dishonest" is one.

I always acknowledge and if possible offer links to statements or information or quotes.

Links as I responded to Geri's issue at providing them, is that they are voluntary, I prefer them but others don't. That is individual choice.

In this case in the first post I clearly acknowledge that part of the post was copied.

So Allygran1 do you regret the way you voted, I haven’t as yet worked it out.

Well said Smileless2012.
"In my experience there are plenty who have an understanding of economics and voting Conservative is not evidence to the contrary." Complete agreement Smileless.

The point that some people from all political persuasions, party members, non party members voted on an individual personal decision to either leave or remain. The other assumptions that those who voted leave across political party persuasions were less informed or educated. This myths has well and truly been busted.
Another point might be worth making here. Intelligent judgement and decision making is not the exclusive domain of the well educated population either in the remain or leave groups. Many of the most intelligent people I know have a basic secondary education and were more than capable of weighing up what is best for them and making a measured judgement of a situation, in this case: leave or remain in the EU.

Bridgeit I am surprised that you have to ask me that question. However, I will oblige.

With all the information available on line, plus the experience of life living within the EU, along with all the behaviour of the EU since the referendum and brexit vote, how could anyone want to remain.

To answer your question do I regret the way I voted? Most definitely not.

Everything I have read on Gransnet from remain voters and all the research that those comments have encouraged me to carry out, have simply reinforced my view, one which I have held for years, that Britain must extract itself from the EEA and the EU as it marches forward to every closer political and economic union.

In a fast moving changing capitalist world we have to be able to respond to changing markets and economic ups and down around the world by adjusting the economy quickly. This cannot happen as part of the EU/EEA.

Since being in the EU in various forms under various names for 70 years (most of my life) and by stealth, being absorbed into a United States of Europe, we have seen not union but differentials and divides in society steadily increasing with unplannable population expansion, the loss traditional industries, financial crisis with the traditional 20 year gaps closing to 10 year gaps and now unpredictable all under the flag of an ever expanding EU. This is mirrored across the EEA. This is something that cannot continue.

The influence of the EU is embedded in all that has caused and is still causing disatisfaction and division in my view and it is not for me.

When we look at what is wrong in Britain today and blame any Government (Labour, Conservative, Coalitions) we must rethink, who is behind the problem? It is the EU social, economic, and technological policy's invariably.
Have you changed your mind on what you voted Bridgeit?

I always acknowledge and if possible offer links to statements or information or quotes. allyg

Well obviously you don’t. As can clearly be seen in your post from Thursday.

Definitely not.

Mostlyharmless. Thanks for the apology.

Your a gem!

I haven’t apologised allyg and I haven’t anything to apologise for. Pure fantasy allyg.

The one person who I have no time for at all is Nigel Farage, no matter what side of the fence ( or channel) one sits he IMO has no integrity whatsoever. Pied Piper comes to mind.

Since being in the EU in various forms under various names for 70 years

How on earth do you work that out. Allyg, seeing that we didn't join the EEC until 1973. 45 years ago to date. Are you thinking of our founder membership of EFTA as well? That was formed in 1960, so only 58 years in all.

Perhaps. Maizie this particular bit of false news was never worked out , just pasted from some random source of misinformation (without attribution)

POGS Thu 17-May-18 10:07:51
Maizie d

Who or 'what' is Steve Analyst / Emporers New Clothes?

Who or 'what' is Dropbox / Mark Byrne?

Which Party does ' Party Members Project Media Resources' belong to/relate to?

You must know all about them so I am interested to understand why you chose to put links up to them.

Bridgeit
^Definately believe we voted on emotion, scaremongering
half truths & patrionism, how could we not,no one knew ,it was pushed through on beliefs ,assumptions & suppositions^

You may have but most people I know would say that this was not the case and had formed their decision long before the referendum was called. if anyone did base their decision on the information given in the weeks before the referendum they may have been somewhat naive. I personally turned the TV over or switched it off whenever there was a referendum broadcast I also binned propaganda recognising it as hyperbole from both sides.

I still notice there are those on here who cannot accept data that contradicts their remain view and are still attacking the poster rather than countering the post content such a shame to sour what it an interesting thread with 'snide' comment.