Unintended consequences of brexit

For anyone who thinks that leaving the EU would increase efficiency, mean less form filling, save money, please watch this video of a call from a van driver who has vast experience of crossing European borders, including the border between the EU and Switzerland.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1uJaJddzP4

This man clearly knows what he is talking about and when the brexiters talk blithely about "frictionless trade" and "technological solutions" to the nightmare which would ensue if we were outside of the customs union, it is obvious they are not talking from experience.

The day after this call to James O'Brien on LBC, the same caller called LBC again and spoke to Jacob Rees-Mogg who drawled the same old platitudes but had absolutely no answer to his questions.

It’s not all about “me” quite the opposite, but when a poster makes a statement like “will you all leave the country or refuse the benefits of Brexit”, which you’ve got to admit is a bit of a goady question , but cannot even give one example of a benefit that could be refused - they should just put their hands up and say sorry it’s a wider issue, not just economic, no personal benefits will be forthcoming , as some of you have. It’s not just “ old ground” so you can’t be “bothered to answer “ , it’s a future projection , an impossible question as we all know. So the poster should not have asked that question. Not that they’d ever admit it. I did not say anything insulting so there’s no point in putting up a shield and saying I’m not answering because of some imagined slight. If you can’t stand the heat and all that.

Yes, as a remainer I find the economic effects of the Brexit process to be alarming and depressing but I value other elements of the European community equally: its protection of human rights, ( or red tape as some leavers would probably call it); its investment in cultural and educational projects ( which I fear a national government might let go by the wayside); grants to science; collaborative projects like Galileo. I value standing together with others so that we can tackle problems together and support the weak. I do not think you can rely on America as an ally. Look how Trump is treating Canada.

From what I have observed, many Remainers seem to concentrate on the economics of Brexit and how this will impact 'me', their view of Brexit is more parochial.
Leavers tend to look at Brexit from a more political and generic stance. The top heavy expensive bureaucracy, the cliques and 'boys clubs'. The strong economies manipulation the poorer economies for their benefit, the unease simmering throughout.
The EU will inevitably collapse or at least fragment. Therefore, do you jump a ship whilst it is sinking or wait until it is submerged?
Leavers and Remainers view the prospects from different perspectives and use different reference points for their arguments.

WSS. If I was a millionaire with Tory connections and all my money in an offshore tax haven, I could come up with quite a few benefits for me from Brexit.
But since I am not, I resent those that are telling me I should be grateful for higher prices, companies failing, jobs lost ect ect

Problem is Lemon - so far none of us have been able to find any benefits and had hopes that some of the Leavers might have links to a list.

suzied
You are just going over very old ground, no wonder that Leavers can’t be bothered to answer you.
The referendum was two years ago and it has been raging on here on GN ever since, with Remainers demanding ‘ show us the benefits of Brexit’.
Well do some reading for yourself! If you are truly interested that is.

It’s telling that you refuse to answer a direct simple question concerning phrase you yourself used claiming to be insulted. What did I say to insult you apart from using your own words which no doubt were intended to insult those who don’t agree with you?
To paraphrase your reply.
The benefits of Brexit are
Not saying - look it up for yourself
Wait and see
No one knows
Jam tomorrow

Lemongrove and Joelsnan, you are both so right with everything you say. Joelsnan as you say "Time will tell". Suddenly lemongrove we seem to have had a swop of poster's with the same 'sneering attitude' that you so correctly identified. That in itself is interesting.
My rule of thumb is now that I will not respond to impolite or insulting, and "sneering" comments. Or group bullying, even when the group dynamics have been changed. Same stuff different poster names.

Unfortunately Allygran the sneering attitude towards anyone who had the temerity to vote Leave still continues apace on GN.
We haven’t yet actually ‘Brexited’ and it would be more sensible for some to wait and see how it all plays out, as yelling before they are hurt springs to mind.

suzied, pleased to know that you are an old hand at this News and Politics forum. You may not know this but I do not respond to impolite, or insulting post's.

The moral high ground is full of people who will not sink to the lowest level of debate. There is always room so don't feel excluded, all you have to do is treat people nicely and with respect. It's not difficult.

Jalimal, whilst I understand what you are saying and have some sympathy with it. I believe have contributed enough , some would say too much, on the complexity of Brexit. Therefore anyone who is really interested may be able and indeed want to read it for themselves on the thread. I simply am not continuing to do the Brexit merry go round and particularly not with posters who like suzied resort to that sort of insulting post. She may not know that I do not respond if post's like that so I will let her know.

oh, sorry, possibly 2,400 +

suzied I am sure that you have been on GN for some time, or is there someone with a similar name?

Alygran I think asking someone who is new to the thread to plough through possible 1,400 posts on threads is a bit of 'an ask' so a precis of the benefits could be helpful.

Allygran Some will not listen, some will not see, some are too frighten, some don't want to be free. So let it be....time will tell

Not answered the question . Hmm. Surprise surprise. You threw out the remark about refusing the benefits of Brexit but avoid saying what they might be apart from referring me back through hundreds of threads. I would have thought someone who can write profusely would have no problem in a précis of them in a succinct paragraph. Obviously not. Never mind. You have the moral
high ground as you said. Must be chilly up there.

suzied, not come across your post's before, I therefore because of your question thought you must be new to Brexit and Brexit 2. I refer you to my previous response.

"Hi suzied,
There has been a 1000 thread on Brexit and now a Brexit 2 thread, plus this one on consequences. Much as I would love to go through all of that again, which would answer your very reasonable question, as another poster said, body and soul just could not take it. If you haven't already done so I urge you to read all the threads on Brexit and that will give you all sides of what has been a mammoth debate, and largely with the odd spat or two or three, has been well debated in my view."

Hi suzied,
There has been a 1000 thread on Brexit and now a Brexit 2 thread, plus this one on consequences. Much as I would love to go through all of that again, which would answer your very reasonable question, as another poster said, body and soul just could not take it. If you haven't already done so I urge you to read all the threads on Brexit and that will give you all sides of what has been a mammoth debate, and largely with the odd spat or two or three, has been well debated in my view.

You have been posting on Gnet for just 1 month, Ally. suzied was here long before you and has contributed to, & read, threads from before the referendum and since (I can assure you that the News and Politics forum hasn't been a Brexit free zone for well over 2 years.)

That she is still asking what the benefits of Brexit are should indicate that no-one has, in all that time, ever come up with any. Many of us are still waiting to be told one...

But in your previous post you said
As a remainer will you leave the country (assuming you live here in the first place), or will you refuse the benefits of Brexit
no-one has clearly stated what those benefits are that I could reject. or maybe you just want 48% of the country to leave? Im lucky as I can apply for an Irish passport by virtue of a grandparent and I am endeavouring to do so along with many thousands of others. That way I will retain my EU citizenship with those benefits. But I still don't know what the benefits of Brexit are that you say I could reject. I don't want a thesis or cliches- a short bullet point list would suffice.

Benifits of Brexit:
? ?????

Still no benefit given - even if you read all the other threads this question was NEVER answered.

"suzied Sun 10-Jun-18 05:08:07
Pray tell me what the benefits of Brexit are that I can reject?"

Hi suzied,
There has been a 1000 thread on Brexit and now a Brexit 2 thread, plus this one on consequences. Much as I would love to go through all of that again, which would answer your very reasonable question, as another poster said, body and soul just could not take it. If you haven't already done so I urge you to read all the threads on Brexit and that will give you all sides of what has been a mammoth debate, and largely with the odd spat or two or three, has been well debated in my view.

It's very complex deeply rooted in economics, democracy, trading and development of society into the twenty first century. It's about Schrodingers cat, Schumpeters 'gale', a myriad of ideology's, Feucault's power relations, Marx's capitalism......and of course a better society, a safe society, a society that can survive rapid, multiply changes brought about by capitalism.

Technological change is rapid, just look at phones, once a new generation phone took about five years, then three, now they come along annually, creating sales. All changes bringing about different businesses new skill demands, more transferability of skill requirements. Just take a look at the High Street at the moment, having to re-think their business due to on line shopping, excellence in delivery systems (mainly), more leisure time spent in other ways than shopping, with less homage to the citadels of consumerism - the super shopping malls.

All about change, our Governments have to make sure that we are ready for constant threats to our economy. Recessions having been roughly about every 20 years in the past, have been every ten or so, in the future in or out of the EU they will be much closer together, if a country has no reserves to fall back on through prudent management then every one suffers.

The EU structure is a formed "State" undemocratic in structure built with a purpose of making every Country the same. The Eurozone cannot respond quickly enough during financial threat because the 27 Countries are all tied into one set of rules, one currency, and the threat will be different to them all, demanding individual quick response, which they cannot do under the EU system. Italy,Greece, almost broke, Germany running a large deficit. Polarised extreme political ideologies prevail. Italy refusing to acknowledge any rules from the EU. Greece, basically bankrupted. It is a large unwieldy, undemocratic, corporate body. Developed on the lines of a cult or "occult" in the true sense of that word, not the commonly used version.

I just have not got the energy Suzied to write a thesis on this which is what it would take, in fact, I think everyone who has contributed to the Brexit debate on here, clocking up 1000 plus posts, deserve some sort of academic recognition or at the very least a while in a Brexit free zone.

Sorry, I just can't be of more help.

Pray tell me what the benefits of Brexit are that I can reject?

varian Sat 09-Jun-18 21:17:34
"How many other lies were told by the leave campaign?"

Varian this is just such a concrete statement. My view is that scaremongering has predominately emanated from Remainer organised sources. Most of which has later been admitted by a number of these sources to have been "miscalculated" or wrong, this could be interpreted as lies, but generously, most leave voters have accepted, that as there is a solid, consistent propaganda campaign against Brexit, that these thing will happen. It is very satisfying when we see that the Country, our Country is doing very well, defying the doomsayers and pessimistic remainers, or the elite groups of organised remain groups who haunt the corridors of power, who have lot's to personally loose when we leave the EU.

Considering we have come through the biggest recession since 1929, that we are managing our exit from the EU with every difficulty being put in our way, whilst having to deal with the 'enemy from within", which adds a sad and disturbing dimension to Brexit, life goes on, and optimism generally in my world is good, there is a good feeling. Anger is growing against the EU for their intransigence and it is doing them no favours being difficult.

The leave voters as individuals,have been targeted not by individual remainers in the population, but by organised remainer power groups. The purpose? To convince us [leavers] that we are unable to distinguish between the truth and lies, (as you are doing), whilst attempting to convince others that we are gullible, not too bright, and definitely uneducated, impressionable and I think someone, an MP referred to us as 'morons'. We have proven to be non of the above, and in fact have shown intelligence, foresight, strength and courage, that is required to accept change, manage that change in order to safeguard and expand the opportunities for the next generations into the twenty-first century. We have shown fortitude and fight back in abuse and insults and generally have managed to maintain the moral high ground. We have shown an understanding of more than the superficial reasons for wanting to leave Europe.
So the question you ask about the leave campaign and lies. It's past, it's gone. You can only start a journey from where you are. We are here, all the words, propaganda, on both sides up to here are in the past.

We move forward together or what? As a remainer will you leave the country (assuming you live here in the first place), or will you refuse the benefits of Brexit, or will you for the rest of your life every time there is a blip, jump up and say "I voted remain". When the EU as it will collapses and we are safe, will you then jump up and say "I voted remain", I doubt it.

How many other lies were told by the leave campaign?