Unintended consequences of brexit

I still don’t get how agreeing with someone is ganging up? But I won’t get a straight answer. It’s no more ganging up that all those “good posts” and “well saids” at the end of some critical post which no one else reads. Ganging up suggests some agreed strategy between posters. No such thing. If someone wishes to grind a debate to a halt the strategy seems to be well used here. I have never called a post garbage, I have just said I haven’t time or energy to read long cut n paste posts. Why is that ganging up? It’s not.

I don’t like links, which take you away from the thread, but if any of you want to post long articles am happy to read them ( if they are interesting) and expect others will too.

When anyone agrees with a post, it’s supportive and could never be construed as ‘gang bully mode’ .....can you not tell the difference crytaltipps ?
You, and Varian and MaizieD should stick to talking about the content of Allygran’s posts ( and not merely calling it garbage, that’s what teenagers do) instead of being sarcastic.

That’s because you are crystaltipps !
Just read the last few posts.
Varian you have done your best to rubbish all Leave voters for the past two years and no doubt will still be doing so bitterly, long after we have left the EU.
If you don’t want to read long posts then don’t read them, but it’s quite obvious to all that had these same long posts been about how awful leaving the EU is, they would have been read eagerly.

Careful - will be accused of ganging up.

varian

It was the attempt to dismiss your posts as 'propaganda' that I was questioning...

Which was especially ironic from someone who wants us to take a Daily Express article as 'fact'

I hope there is a real difference between my posts and allygran's- the length for a start.

I wouldn’t dream of pasting lengthy sections of N Clegg’s book. I have criticised lengthy posts as being unnecessary, unreadable and adding nothing to any discussion, whether I agreed with such lengthy pieces or not. The fact that few people read them is testament to that. The book is available online and in print for anyone who wishes to read it.

I’m not sure why when a couple of people criticise a post it’s considered “gang bully mode” yet when a couple of people agree with a post it’s “friendly and supportive”. The “friendly and supportive” could be considered “gang bullying” from those of the opposing view and vice versa.

Varian it's OK then, for you to post cut and paste, parts of propaganda that supports your stance on Brexit or any other subject, but not OK for someone who opposes your view or is countering your statements to post information.

There is no difference at all between what Varian posts and what you post, Ally. Her 'information' is your 'propaganda' and vice versa. So please don't try and frame them differently.

"varian Thu 07-Jun-18 22:18:23
Sometimes it is helpful to paste a short piece and give a link.
However cutting and pasting huge chunks of garbage, expecially from brexit websites or the rightwing tabloids is counterproductive. There is an inverse relationship between the quantity of these indiscriminate lengthy postings and the quality of the contribution to any debate.
I doubt whether anyone reads them."

Varian it's OK then, for you to post cut and paste, parts of propaganda that supports your stance on Brexit or any other subject, but not OK for someone who opposes your view or is countering your statements to post information.

Your intense politics are far greater than remain, your attacks are organised and designed to intimidate. You never will.

Your view that people don't read my "garbage" is your view. I suspect that you want to think that to reassure yourselves, that yours are the only voices.

You say: "there is an inverse relationship between the quantity of these indiscriminate lengthy postings and the quality of the contribution to any debate". Now let's take a look at these 'clever' words. An 'inverse relationship' between
quality and quantity, how would you know you never read them. Now you threw in with those 'clever' words, "indiscriminate", what exactly is meant by this word in this context I am not sure. However I can tell you that my postings cut or paste or not, are far from "indiscriminate". They are chosen carefully to put your short, deliberately I suspect, incomplete postings into perspective, or add the missing element that alters the posting to give it balance.

Occasionally I try to find something that will add another dimension to the debate, as I did with the Express article posted today. I am just as entitled to post a right wing tabloid article as you are a left wing one. If you can't deal with that, it says more about you than me.

Now I have told you before but it will bear repeating that I will post whatever length of post I feel is appropriate. If you want to read it do, if not don't, but you help nothing with griping about it, hurling insults and using emotive words, like "garbage", "indiscriminate" "right wing" and let's not forget "inverse relationship". Of course you always try to do down quality because you infer that the two quality and quantity can't go together, your wrong. Any good thesis, article or book is both of these.

So now we have things in perspective I forgive you for your rudeness, inability to disagree without resorting to personal attacks.If I did not know better I would think your very young.

You should know that your words don't bother me, in fact you make me more determined to stand up to you. I don't think about you at all once I switch this machine off, nor do you affect my life or my world. So what I am saying is you don't matter to me. However, what you think interest me, but as you can't engage at that level, we shall never know what you really think, other than sticking to your agenda for discussion on your own terms, that comes over to me as rigid dogma.

I will not be bullied or intimidated by words on a website into silence, especially from people with blinkered views who are afraid of alternative views to their own.

Had you been seriously interested in discussing the EU and how we came to this point in the history of the EU, you would have jumped at the chance to counter or defend or discuss or call people names when I posted that article. You haven't done that because that would change your agenda for discussion.

Analysing how the threads work and the way that "the gang" appears, looking at the timings and depth of discussion that changes at certain times, to one liners that mean nothing. It is all very interesting. But progresses not one jot the overall discussion,it just goes round and round getting nowhere, when we decide to leave you on your own with a thread.

Whenever people intervene to add another dimension to the discussion that you don't like, you go into gang bully mode, to shut real discussion at any depth down.
You don't intimidate me! Read or don't read, discuss or don't discuss. The post is in the ether.

Crystaltipps. Go ahead let's take a look at Nick Cleggs book. Choose a piece from the book and post it. I can assure you I will comment on it. It is essential in a democracy that we look at all side of things. Reading something that I might not agree with does not feel threatening to my beliefs.

Lemongrove thank's for the lead to the Roger Bootle book, and your support.

You could do worse, crystaltipps than post chunks of Nick Clegg's book which was the winner at the 2017 Parliamentary book awards from a shortlist dominated by titles addressing populist discontent and protest.

In "How to Stop Brexit (And Make Britain Great Again)", the former deputy prime minister debunks myths about Europe, which he claims were used to persuade the public to support the UK’s departure from the EU. Describing the vote as a “historic mistake”, the former leader of the Liberal Democrats explains how Brexit could be reversed.

Sometimes it is helpful to paste a short piece and give a link.

However cutting and pasting huge chunks of garbage, expecially from brexit websites or the rightwing tabloids is counterproductive. There is an inverse relationship between the quantity of these indiscriminate lengthy postings and the quality of the contribution to any debate.

I doubt whether anyone reads them.

The EU negotiators aren’t doing wonderfully well, they don’t have to do anything, they have set their position clear and haven’t wavered from that. Why should they? It’s the U.K. negotiators who have U turned and twisted all the way through. May is in a very precarious position. She has promised the moon and the stars to appease the Eurosceptics and she will not be able to deliver. If she’d have come out at the start and said the result was very close, we’ll go for a soft Brexit, apart from the extremists, most people would have said, fine, get on with it.

I am sure if I was cut n pasting huge swathes of Nick Clegg's book I would be rightly criticised as adding little in the way of discussion. If we want to read a book or lengthy article we will do so. Yes I know I can and do ignore paragraphs of lifted text, and I may well be missing something supremely interesting, but there are only so many hours in the day. I wasn’t being “ unfriendly” just responding to the poster’s own suggestion. The poster who frequently posts huge texts must know that these won’t all be read or be welcomed by all, and it would be disengenuous to pretend otherwise.

MaizeD, I wish I had something constructive to say, but I haven’t ,which is why I said I’m sure they are trying to make the best of a bad situation, as in they aren’t deliberately trying to get a bad deal ,it just probably will be! Many people choose / hoped it would turn out differently.

Bridgeit. I'm completely failing to understand how the government can possibly have any chance of getting a good deal when they have a) set out a number of red lines which make it impossible to achieve a good deal and b) they are completely divided on what they want to achieve.

Also, when their own analysis of the effects of different scenarios all point to economic harm for the UK.

From my own perspective Lemongrove, I certainly don’t think that . I believe our Government is doing all they can to get us a good deal . Personally I don’t believe they will get what Brexiteres expect or believed.
Certainly there was room for improvement,but if you are not at the table you can’t participate & negotiate. I sincerely hope I am wrong & that all will be fine, but Inbelieve it will be too little & too late & the next generation will be worse off in so many ways.

I do understand worries about Brexit, but have never understood the feeling by quite a few Remainers that the EU negotiators are doing everything wonderfully well and the British Government isn’t.There have been posts on GN over the past couple of years with sentiments like ‘ Good for them!’and ‘haha, the EU team think the UK is a joke’ and so on and so forth.Bizarre really, coming from British citizens.
The EU were always going to make things as difficult as
possible, as they are terrified other countries will want to leave, and furthermore, wanted our money.Nevertheless, we are going, and however difficult things may be at first, we will come back from that and carry on trading with the EU and the rest of the world, as we have always done.

But they are not views,they are very lengthy lifted articles, many posters offer up links to compliment their opinions, leaving it up to individuals to avail themselves of said information at their leisure.

These situations you have flagged up Varian may not have been an expected consequence of Brexit ,but they are certainly an example of what many remainers were concerned about. It’s just the tip of the iceberg so far. Let’s hope for everyone’s sake that eventually some positives will push through.

Why so unfriendly crystaltipps and others?
Without posters giving their views of the ‘other side of the coin’ this thread becomes merely an echo chamber with everyone nodding away in agreement.
Try and disagree with the posts without catty comments to
Allygran who always manages to be polite.

The long post by John Forsythe was very interesting, I have just been reading a good book called Making A Success Of Brexit by Roger Bootle.

Just realised you both sound like a production of "over the garden wall".