Unintended consequences of brexit

They agreed with Cameron that the U.K. would not need to join the Euro and I think not bail out any more. He got some quite good things from them but they only ever made the middle pages of the press.

The Leave camp kept telling the public that they could keep all the benefits and unfortunately many believed them. The cost of belonging was less than 2% of GDP - a piddling amount for the benefits. Consumers and workers will be that main losers not the rich tucking their millions away in tax havens.

"Fennel Thu 07-Jun-18 14:03:13
From a very long thread on Mumsnet:
"It must be so frustrating for the EU and its negotiators: May et al spend months agonising over something that they can agree to - without any apparent consideration as to whether it would acceptable to the EU confused

And then they get all outraged and affronted when the EU says, "Naw" confused"."

This is a very naive simplification of a very complex set of negotiations. Who on Mums net and where did the person get this from. A person on Mums net's view is just as unacceptable to me as my views are to you unless I give you a link.

Mh which benefits? Anything that comes from the EU will cease on Brexit. That is common sense.

What we gain is £74 billion euro's about £64 billion pounds a year that we don't pay to the EU.

Plus we are free to trade across the world. We will be ready to avoid the collapse of the Euro which is coming. One of the changes Cameron wanted was that we should not be expected to bail out the failing Euro not being in the Eurozone. The EU Eurocrats rejected it.

Breaking News - Brexit means we lose EU benefits!

allyg but you must have known UK would lose EU benefits when you voted “Leave” as you said you knew exactly what you were voting for.

However, EU sources have told Sky News that British consumers could lose out on these benefits after Brexit.

One senior source said: "It will be virtually impossyible, unless the UK wants to stay in the internal (single) market, which Mrs May says she won't."

From Varian’s link.

From a very long thread on Mumsnet:
"It must be so frustrating for the EU and its negotiators: May et al spend months agonising over something that they can agree to - without any apparent consideration as to whether it would acceptable to the EU confused

And then they get all outraged and affronted when the EU says, "Naw" confused".

Varian something like this is not protecting their interests, it matters not to them if Britain is including in roaming charges in the EU or not. These charges are controlled by the operators in negotiation with the EU as it is now.
However, it is being considered post Brexit by our Government and the negotiations for Brexit include roaming charges, it means our Government will negotiate roaming charge reductions with the operators in the same way that the EU has. The briefing paper discusses the issues and what has to be done: See the 2017 briefing paper

"House of Commons Library
“The abolition of mobile roaming charges and Brexit”
Commons Briefing papers CBP-8034
Author: Kilian Bourke
Topics: EU law and treaties, Telecommunications

How does mobile roaming work?

When UK mobile users travel abroad and continue to use their mobile services, often incurring surcharges, they are using retail roaming services. For this to be possible, their UK mobile company must conclude commercial agreements with foreign operators to use their networks (known as wholesale roaming). In 2007 the European Union (EU) responded to unjustifiably high retail and wholesale roaming charges by introducing regulated maximum price caps for both. Since then, these caps have been periodically reviewed and lowered.

The abolition of roaming charges in the EU

Since 15 June 2017 roaming charges in the EU have been abolished. This means that mobile customers are now able to use their domestic allowance of minutes, text messages and data throughout the EU (and the European Economic Area (EEA)) without incurring additional charges. To make this commercially sustainable for operators the EU has allowed operators to guard against abusive or anomalous usage through a Fair Use Regulation, which means that there are a number of exceptions to the policy.

Possible impact of Brexit on roaming

The Government has indicated that the abolition of roaming charges will continue to apply in the UK until it leaves the EU. Following Brexit, a number of scenarios are possible. Some commentators have warned that prices for wholesale and retail roaming services will increase if a replacement for the reciprocal price caps on wholesale roaming charges is not agreed. Companies which are part of large international groups will be partly insulated from such increases; other operators, particularly MVNOs, will not. The Government has indicated that Brexit will not mean an automatic re-introduction of retail roaming charges as some operators might continue to offer surcharge-free roaming services to customers.

Retaining current roaming benefits after Brexit?

The 2015 Government stated that the Great Repeal Bill would ensure that the same rules for roaming would apply after Brexit and confirmed that it is exploring a number of options. The ban on retail roaming charges could be retained in domestic law, but retaining the caps on wholesale charges would require a reciprocal agreement with the EU. The UK could continue to participate directly in the roaming regulations if it became a non-EU member of the EEA. Alternately, provisions on wholesale roaming caps could be included in a UK-EU free trade agreement. The former Government’s position and the impact of Brexit on mobile roaming charges was the subject of Parliamentary scrutiny in 2016/17, which has now concluded. The 2017 Government has not yet made any statement on this issue.

Global roaming

When the UK leaves the EU, it will be free to include roaming provisions in Free Trade Agreements with non-EU countries. These agreements could include provisions that would seek to achieve low roaming prices by mutual agreement. A number of precedents exist but closer analysis of their effects is needed.

This Briefing Paper applies to the whole of the UK as mobile roaming charges is not a devolved issue."
Above is Pasted text.

Things will have changed since this paper was produced, I will try to bring this information up to date for us. But later, things to do now.

Allygran
"The EU are really nice guys aren't they Varian. "
It's nothing to do with being nice guys - they're protecting their own interests, and why shouldn't they?
We're the ones who are presenting the problems, why should they exert themselves to help us?

The EU are really nice guys aren't they Varian. And you want to be one of them!

I will check out your information and comment later.

Sky News has learned that British consumers may lose the right to capped international phone bills across the EU after Brexit.

The European Parliament passed a directive on Tuesday evening which will lead to a legal cap on the price of phone calls and texts between EU countries. That cap will be set at nineteen cents (about 16p) a minute and six cents (5p) per text, representing a considerable saving to many. According to European consumer groups, in some countries, current call rates can be as high as 80 cents (70p) a minute. It also has set a target for a 5G network across the whole of the union by 2020.

However, EU sources have told Sky News that British consumers could lose out on these benefits after Brexit.

news.sky.com/story/britons-may-lose-cap-on-eu-phone-bills-after-brexit-sky-news-learns-11396992

"MaizieD Wed 06-Jun-18 17:18:33
Maybe you should send your helpful cut and paste of the Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Bill to the FTA, Ally"

That's done Maizie. Good Idea!

Maybe you should send your helpful cut and paste of the Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Bill to the FTA, Ally

Though I'd be very surprised if they didn't know about it already. If they do, it doesn't seem to have done anything to reassure them..

It will also be much easier to obtain parts from mainland countries than from the U.K. where they need to use airfreight or ferries. Some companies are moving to mainland Europe to get round the percentage problem.

None of this was going to matter!

I don't think you actually read the article about the car parts, Ally. It's not about traceability; it's about the requirement that 55% of the components have to be made in the EU. Once the UK is a third country our components cannot be counted as part of the 55%. Not only will this affect component sales to the EU but it may also affect decisions by carmakers as to whether or not they continue operations in the UK.

I think it has more to do with reliability of supply chain than standard of the goods. These companies work on tight schedules and can not afford any delay in deliveries. Some places are being warned to begin stockpiling in case there is a problem with deliveries.

MD surely you must have realised that the EU and possibly some EU countries or associated countries would have to issue trading notes to their business's, regarding EU standardised traceability guidelines for when Britain exits the EU. This is normal business practice. As long as the parts they purchase from Britain are compliant with the EU traceability requirements then there will be no change. The Dutch are being cautious as they should be. The EU is being difficult as it always is. The negotiations on traceability standards will be proceeding. Let's stop scaremongering. I will check on where this negotiation is at and post it. After I have dinner sorted.

Maizie D : To revert to the thread topic. I'm sure this wasn't an intended consequence of Brexit. European car makers being warned off using UK manufactured components.
news.sky.com/story/amp/european-businesses-advised-to-avoid-using-british-parts-ahead-of-brexit-11395908?__twitter_impression=true

When this was spoken of previously, it was denied as part of Project Fear. Along with several other economic warnings, but then, what do experts know?
Just because it didn't happen overnight didn't make it untrue

Re:MaizieD Wed 06-Jun-18 10:21:28

This is useful Md:

Latest news on the Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Bill [HL] 2017-19
The Public Bill Committee has now completed its work and has reported the Bill with amendments to the House, and is no longer able to receive written evidence.
What happens next?
The Bill will next be considered at Report Stage and Third Reading on a date to be announced. Amendments can be made to the Bill at Report Stage. Amendments to be considered are selected by the Speaker.https://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2018/may/have-your-say-on-the-haulage-permits-and-trailer-registration-bill/
Additional information
•About Parliament: Passage of a Bill
•Library Briefing Paper: Commons briefing paper
•Bill Documents: Including text of the Bill, explanatory notes, amendment papers and briefing papers
Summary of the Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Bill [HL] 2017-19

services.parliament.uk/bills/2017-19/haulagepermitsandtrailerregistrationbill.html

The Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Bill
The government has introduced legislation on cross-border haulage as the UKcontinues its preparations for life outside the EU.
The UK’s overall aim in the negotiations with the EU is to maintain and develop the existing liberalised access for commercial haulage, as part of the wider future partnership.
It is possible that a future deal with the EU could require a form of permitting system and the government will need to have legal frameworks in place to introduce a new administrative system if required.
The Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Bill, which was introduced by Baroness Sugg in the House of Lords, gives the government this flexibility.
This is part of wider government preparations to ensure the UK can deliver a smooth and orderly Brexit, as we move from our current membership of the EU to our future partnership. This bill gives the UK the powers we need to support UK hauliers to continue operating internationally after the UK leaves the EU.
Key elements of the bill include:
•arrangements to enable a permit scheme if required as part of a deal with the EU – ensuring UK hauliers can obtain the necessary paperwork to provide services to and from EU countries
•the establishment of a trailer registration scheme in line with the 1968 Vienna Convention - this will ensure UK operators driving on the continent can comply with the requirements of those EU countries which require the registration of trailers travelling on their roads
Some European countries have agreements with third countries which require a permit as a condition for hauliers to operate across borders. The bill will ensure we are prepared to manage the issuing of permits should this be needed as part of post exit arrangements.
We plan to produce policy scoping documents outlining the intention of the regulations for both parts of the bill as the bill progresses through Parliament and we will be consulting with industry later this year (2018).
The Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Bill Minister is Jesse Norman MP.
Baroness Sugg is taking the bill through the House of Lords.
The Haulage Permits and Trailer Registration Bill team can be contacted at [email protected].
3. Haulage permits
Following our exit from the EU, existing EU regulations (EC 1072/2009 common rules for access to the international road haulage market) that allow UK operators to haul goods in other member states may cease to apply.
It is possible that the future deal with the EU could require a form of permitting system and the government will need to have legal frameworks in place to introduce a new administrative system if required. The bill gives the government this flexibility.
Permits are a key feature of almost all international road freight agreements outside of free trade areas. The bill will allow the UK to distribute permits to UK operators that we have agreed with overseas authorities. The type and form of permit will depend on the agreements we negotiate, so the bill is designed to cope with various possible permits arrangements.
The bill provides new powers to:
•allocate permits efficiently
•charge fees for permit application and issuance
•enforce against permit scheme offences
UK road haulage directly contributes £13.1 billion GVA to the UK economy, and plays a major role in carrying around £35 billion in trade between the UK and the EU.
The majority of the UK’s international road freight is with EU countries (France, Germany, Netherlands, Ireland and Belgium).
3.1 Existing Permit Schemes
Bilateral permit agreements
The UK has permit-based agreements with several non-EU countries which will continue. These include: Belarus, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Morocco, The Russian Federation, Tunisia and Ukraine. The UK also has liberal (non-permit) agreements with Serbia, Albania and Turkey.
Single-journey permits are valid for one complete journey (the outward and return trips counting as one complete journey). Multiple-journey permits are available for Morocco, which authorises 15 return trips during the validity of the permit.
European Conference of Ministers of Transport (ECMT) permit system
ECMT permits are multilateral licences issued under the International Transport Forum for the international carriage of goods by road transport in ECMT member countries (43 countries, including all EU states except Cyprus.
For more details see international authorisations and permits for road haulage.
3.2 What the bill will do
Allow for regulations to oblige hauliers to carry a permit, where our international agreements require it [Section 1].
Allow the Secretary of State to issue permits to applicants. Regulations will detail how hauliers should apply for permits and how the Secretary of State will decide whether to grant a permit. This will be based on pre-determined criteria which will be consulted on [Section 2].
Charge appropriate fees for obtaining a permit [Section 5].
Allows for temporary exemptions to be made for UK vehicles travelling internationally, or foreign vehicles coming to the UK where there is an emergency or special need [Sections 3, 10 and 11].
But the bill does not:
•confirm the UK will be introducing a permit scheme after we leave the EU
•automatically stop international road haulage
If a permit system is required as part of an agreement with the EU we will seek to ensure the burdens on industry are no more than they already experience today when applying for an international permit and community licence.

All pasted.

"MaizieD Wed 06-Jun-18 09:23:29Apart from that, some 'evidence' for her claims would have been useful in the McNamara extract. It's very easy to write stirring rabble rousing polemics if you don't bother with verifying the truth of your statements."

As with all academic writing, at the end of the book there is a Bib. In footnotes there are references and acknowledgements for the whole book. As I said to Mh this book can be ordered from your Local Library or you can pay for it on line I believe, if you are so inclined.

Mh sorry about that, there are none.
"The Politics of Everyday Europe: Constructing Authority in the European Union"
By Kathleen R. McNamara. From my University Library access restricted site. Can be ordered through your local Library. Or can be paid for to read on line, which I object to doing. But you might feel it's worth the cost.

blogactiv.eu/blog/2014/04/09/foucault-the-european-idea-and-greece/
Just paste this into your search box and away you go.

But Mh did you read the content?

Then there is this. The Freight Transport Association getting extremely worried.

But the real show stopper is that, under European law, unless an agreement is reached, there will only be 103 international haulage Permits to cover the 300,000 journeys made by British trucks to Europe each year. The logistics industry is being asked to decide who would get a Permit to Drive if there are not enough to go around – in effect, being asked to destroy the businesses of its international haulage members.”

The industry’s frustration with the lack of progress is building daily. Logistics businesses simply cannot answer their customers’ questions about how they will move goods after Brexit. Manufacturers and retailers are losing faith and fear that post-Brexit Britain is at real risk of becoming nothing more than a series of road blocks at our ports and airports.

“What is really making our members angry is that these real, legitimate concerns are simply being dismissed by some members of the Government on the basis that it will not be in the EU’s interests to impose them. This is a reckless attitude to take and is playing chicken with crucial parts of the British economy and the livelihoods of the seven million Britons in the industry. All the evidence is that the other EU member states are recruiting hordes of border officials to enforce their rule book, regardless of the cost to their businesses and consumers. Expecting economic realism to kick in after 50 years of top-down bureaucracy is a bit of a stretch from UK politicians who have always slammed the EU for its obsession with rules and bureaucracy. The reliance on the other side blinking first is hanging the logistics industry out to dry.

fta.co.uk/media/press-releases/2018/june/brexit-britain-on-the-road-to-nowhere-says-fta

these real, legitimate concerns are simply being dismissed by some members of the Government on the basis that it will not be in the EU’s interests to impose them

Words completely fail me. Typical Leaver wishful thinking at government level ?

Don't we expect something a little more mature and grownup (and practical) than "something will turn up" ?

To revert to the thread topic. I'm sure this wasn't an intended consequence of Brexit. European car makers being warned off using UK manufactured components.

news.sky.com/story/amp/european-businesses-advised-to-avoid-using-british-parts-ahead-of-brexit-11395908?__twitter_impression=true

Sorry. Still difficult to tell where cut and paste starts and finishes and what the original ideas of the poster are.

Apart from that, some 'evidence' for her claims would have been useful in the McNamara extract. It's very easy to write stirring rabble rousing polemics if you don't bother with verifying the truth of your statements.

No blue link there allyg?

This post is looking at an academic view of what legitimates power? Power based institutional model that makes subjects of other nations citizens in the formation of an artificial 'state' the EU.

Anyone interested in the way the EU has formed itself into a "State", by stealth will find this book by Kathleen R. McNamara might be interesting:
Just a taste:
"Vast areas of national political economies are now ruled by the EU, and social and foreign policy are being encroached upon, but without the violence of political suppression that has occurred in other instances of political consolidation. In fact, until the Eurozone crisis, there has been remarkably little widespread questioning of the EU's emergence. How can this be?"

"The European nation states have surrendered themselves to the mechanics of the particular political technologies that the EU has used to create its cultural infrastructure and establish itself as a social fact, rather than openly contested powers. Those technologies have layered the EU's symbols and practices on top of, around and in between the European nation states. This has allowed the EU to be politically under the radar of most citizens and thus diluted potential resistance, even as the EU makes decisions over critical social values, with hugh distributional consequences. The EU has had much less overt politicisation over it's development in comparison with historical episodes of political development. Yet the tensions in the distinctive cultural infrastructure of the EU are growing. Economic malaise, social disruption, and a sense of political stagnation are putting pressure on the cultural infrastructure of the EU."
"The Politics of Everyday Europe: Constructing Authority in the European Union"
By Kathleen R. McNamara

Without an antagonistic opposition at the ideology, judicial and economic control and power levels there is no democracy. The EU has used two mechanisms to establish itself as a "state". The first being the unelected corporate structure that involves representatives of Governments of member nations and second, the illusion of democracy with politically structured Parliament with elected MEP's. A cleverly constructed artificial 'state". The introduction of "citizenship" and issuing EU passports, designed to subjectify.

From blogactiv.eu: "The role of the global market economy which reflects a massive change towards the spheres of politial, society, and economy has influenced a lot the emergence of the idea of a European institutional Unity.
Foucault assures us that the enhancement of the European Union is bringing us waves of strong reaction. The desirable consensus that is difused among the atmosphere of the European Institutions does not reflect the political reality.
In this frame, Greece is not facing a political infection by its European partners but a *Schmittian attack of an enemy at the political and economical level."

*Carl Schmitt:
"If the constitution of a state is democratic, then every exceptional negation of democratic principles, every exercise of state power independent of the approval of the majority, can be called dictatorship."

Bibliography
•Foucault Michel, The Order of Things, London: Routledge, 2001
•Hayek Friedrich August, The Road to Serfdom, London: Routledge, 1944
•Rwals John, A Theory of Justice, Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1971
•Schmitt Carl, The Concept of the Political, Chicago: Chicago University Press, 2007

blogactiv.eu/blog/2014/04/09/foucault-the-european-idea-and-greece/

It’s a documentary.