Unintended consequences of brexit

The little coterie of angry Remainers on this forum have done their utmost to insult Leavers on here for two years,
And you Varian are one of them.
I am also glad the thread is still here, must a thread be taken down because it mentions the war? Or the fact that Germany started the two wars? Or the fact that Germany likes to be in control regarding the EU.These are simply facts not xenophobia.
In keeping on with this brazen effort of trying to brand posters as xenophobic whilst smugly denying there have been no insults from yourself over the last two years, you show yourself up!
Poorly educated, racist, thick, these are just some of the epithets aimed at fellow GNers since the referendum from you.
So do give it a rest!

None of us on the Remain side have directed any insults, relentless or otherwise towards the little coterie of angry leavers on this forum.

I think it might have been MargaretX, who lives in Germany, who was so offended by some of the posts that she suggested that this thread be taken down by GNHQ.

I am glad the thread is still here for all to read. (Sorry MargaretX). That little coterie have shown themselves up as xenophobes and anyone who reads their posts will be able to judge that for themselves.

Merkal may have saved herself for the moment, but there is going to be tears before bedtime over these transit camps for asylum seekers, and Austria have closed their borders to anyone, not quite in the spirit of freedom of movement, but then other countries in the EU often do as they please, unlike the UK.....perhaps that was our big mistake.

My point regarding UK/EU laws is made to play devils advocate with the repeated insistence by some posters from time to time over the past couple of years that the UK is already sovereign and makes all our own laws, that is not the case.

I'll refer you to my answer to your post:

Any trade agreement (or treaty) made by two or more countries will involve some surrendering of sovereignty.

If we make a trade deal with the US which involves having to accept their hormone laced beef and chlorine washed chicken we have immediately surrendered our control over the food standards we might want to impose nationally. If the deal includes agreed quotas we have immediately lost control over the amount of a commodity we can export.

The only way that we could be completely sovereign is to have no interaction with the rest of the world.

At the source of all the regulation which governs world trade are people. These regulations don't miraculously burst upon the world like the 10 commandments, handed down to the waiting world inscribed on tablets of stone by God. They are devised, scrutinised, negotiated and agreed by people.

The EU is no different. The portrayal of it as a uncontrollable super-being with no connection to the states which comprise it is absurd. All the legal instruments to which you refer have been devised by people from its member states. The initial ideas for legislation come from people; they're not the wizard wheezes of a body of bored and detached civil servants bent on thinking up new and devilish ways to entangle everyone in pointless legislation; they come by way of suggestions, proposals, lobbying etc. from people in the member states.

Like here, UK contributions to EU laws and policies over the years:

www.indy100.com/article/brexit-twitter-thread-political-analyst-european-union-united-kingdom-united-states-america-7834846

Surrendering some sovereignty is the price you pay for belonging to the biggest world market bloc and having frictionless trade with a huge and close market. It's the laws and regulations that bind the single market together and keep it all working.

I'm not altogether sure why you feel you have to 'play devils advocate'. After two years do you really feel that we need to rigorously re-examine our positions in order to respond to you? Is this some sort of intellectual exercise?

well of course, smileless you are more au fait with the NHS than Dr Rachel Clarke, who needs experts eh? I am a remainer and I am not aware of throwing any insults around, unless of course my comments about Brexiteers believing what was writ on the side of a bus can be construed as such? I do see a pattern starting here on GN, and in the frenzied statements being issued by the Pro-Brexit lobby; a sense of panic, almost as if they need to get this dreadful deal signed and sealed before the UK voters realise what a disaster it is going to be. Just how many people who know what they are talking about are going to be dismissed as foolish/scaremongering before the little boy stands up and points out that the Emperor is wearing no clothes? That ones for you Ally as you seem to like comparisons with events in literature

Well varian Dr. Rachel Clarke is wrong. I'm pro NHS and pro Brexit. I don't know what's worse, the arrogance of some remainers who believe they know the inner workings of the minds of those who voted leave, or the relentless insults that some remainers insist on churning out.

nigglynellie, sorry only just come back to the thread. Yes, I think they did, now you mention it, we are not the first then.
I see Chewbacca has posted the answer, thanks.

I share your feelings about Europe and it's multicultural and diverse citizens. Why some people equate our wish to leave the crushing control of the EU with a dislike of the peoples of Europe, I have not idea, well yes I do know why they do it.
However, no matter what is said, this is about the EU and it's insidious controlling system full stop.

As you say, lot's of people travel, work, holiday and have friends and family, in-laws born and living in many country's across Europe. Some of us are multilingual, and some partially educated in Europe. But even if as some people I know who voted leave have no connection to Europe at all, there is never, never a mention of ill feeling to any peoples or country. It's a complete fallacy that there is.

The fallacious accusations and remarks are designed to drag us into defending a position that we do not hold or agree with. I think it is the "unstoppable force meets the immovable object". There is no point to the accusation's or countering them. My conclusion is that we must enjoy the "parrying". Why I don't begin to understand, I am sure we have other things to do with our time.

You might be interested in this Nigglynellie. Just read that Angela Merkel has trouble in her coalition Government in Germany, all about migration. It looks like they have almost split the coalition on this issue, but have managed to hang in there with some sort of agreement, that looks like there will be transit camps on the border with Austria. This feel's like trouble to me. I don't know more than that right now.

Greenland was only in the EU ( its not in Europe) because it was a territory of Denmark. Now its largely independent.

So Greenland didn’t leave in any meaningful sense then?

Greenland. ... When home rule for Greenland began in 1979, it held a new referendum
and voted to leave the EEC. After wrangling over fishing rights, the territory left the EEC
in 1985, but remains subject to the EU treaties through association of Overseas Countries
and Territories with the EU.

Ally, didn't Greenland belong and then leave the EU? I will Google it, but wondered if you knew?
Nobody on here 'hates' Europeans, a lot of us including myself have, through visiting Europe extensively over the years made many, many lasting friends in various countries. It's the EU we dislike, distrust and can't wait to be shot of! There's a big difference between the two!.

Xenophobia: fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign.

www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/xenophobia

Hatred is what has been demonstrated on this thread.

Sorry missed out your name Petra

Master of elitist patronising and of deliberate misunderstanding, but maybe that explains why some believed what Boris wrote on the bus eh? Can we keep it polite? Drop the xenophobia, the 'I am more British than you' crap, and for heaven's sake, yes I know we don't have a like button, and yes, we all agree/disagree with each other but sometimes, some on here, and you know who you are, are creepily agreeing in a rather toadying way. Incidentally, why do you assume that as I am a remainer that I may be a 'leftie'? I prefer to describe myself as a realist.

It can be a very good thing, even essential,definitely an asset but dangerous if it reaches megalomaniac proportions, one only has to look through the pages of history .......

Bridgeit
I've always been full of self belief. Friends and family have often used the word 'scary' in relation to me.

Ally -
I have to admit you are a master of elitist patronising!

Thanks, Varian for the informative link .

'Ohh Dear.

Bridgeit "Bridgeit Tue 03-Jul-18 15:51:24
Well said & Don’t worry Gill57, those you have mentioned will never understand".

I was one of those mentioned, please don't presume to know me, or what I understand, such arrogance Bridgeit.

I am very pleased that you praised Gill57 though, that was nice thing to do. Even if I don't agree with him or you.

Bridgeit, I can see that some might not need praise and in that, lies the arrogance of insular self sufficiency.

Kindness in the form of support rather than the word we are using here praise, is always worth giving, and mostly well received.

"A scholarly definition of xenophobia, according to Andreas Wimmer, is "an element of a political struggle about who has the right to be cared for by the state and society: a fight for the collective goods of the modern state." In other words, xenophobia arises when people feel that their rights to benefit from the government is being subverted by other people's rights.[7]"
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia

This interpretation thus makes xenophobes as you have called the leave voters, the victims and the State, in this case the EU, the subjugator.

Ironic that you don’t get, no one needs your Praise , there in lays the arrogance ?

What won’t we understand Brid?
Those same comments you have written could apply to all the Remain camp on here.

GillT, I too praise many posters on different topics. You have just praised Jura2, nothing wrong with that.