If there was another EU referendum...

Facts can be manipulated. Most people think in a joined up way (why is it implied otherwise) and we come to different conclusions about the EU and Brexit. Despite some posts of epic length Tthread has not advanced very far.
I have not seen an answer on the question of whether or not the Brexiters think that the breach of regulations on electoral spending by the Leave campaign calls in question the validity of their narrow referendum win.

Its a lovely word though - tuuurrrrrrddd. Perhaps we should use it more often.

Welshwife, thanks for the interpretation of modern vernacular. My time is spent keeping-up as you say with Brexit and the EU and other world issues, that 'turd' passed me by. But I can always rely on you for the stuff I miss, like 'turd'.

I should also say crystaltipps, that sharing the same or similar views does not equate to boasting, it equates to solidarity. It does not mean that we are unable to see other views. It does mean that based on the fact's, and being able to do some joined up thinking, we can come to a conclusion about the EU and Brexit, that is different than yours.

Your anger is both wasted and unnecessary.

That was a phrase I think the renowned Boris used to the press. Nothing wrong with just repeating it - those keeping up with things know where these things come from!

That should be crystaltipps. Sorry!

crystallites in your post you demonstrate hate and bile so well. Why?

Turd..what an unusual word for an older person.

However much hate and bile, and self congratulatory boasting spills out ( we speak as one - really?) there is still no getting away from the fact that TMay and co are making a pigs ear out of Brexit- it really is the turd way. Trying to polish it up as if it’s some sort of marvellous victory whilst most people who aren’t looking through the rose tinted Brexitspecs can see the emperor has no clothes.

Greta, thank you for conceding!

A number of us are coming from the same place on Brexit, and the EU, and with every post, we speak mostly as one in our own inimitable style's.

I try ( but fail) to stop reading so much about the eu.
Yesterday I was reading an article from Forbes as to why the euro is a failed project, its not good for the countries locked into it, but then I think the Greeks, Italians, Spanish, portugees don't need telling that.
Is it just a coincidence that these countries were some of the poorest in Europe before they adopted the euro, and still are. Mmmm.

Varian
The article from Barclays chairman came from Reuters.
So maybe should be taken seriously.

If you say so, Allygran1.

Ditto, Day6!

I can’t debate for toffee. I was brought up to always see the other person’s point of view. And I can. I completely get where the Remainers are coming from. I also have the most appalling memory. I know I’ve read something somewhere but can never remember where. You’re speaking for me too Ally

Allygran I too applaud your posts and your grasp of the nitty gritty. You're so well informed and put things so much better than I ever could. Bravo! Please don't stop posting!

I am trying to wean myself off the political threads as they usually cause animosity. However sleep won't come and a late night browsing
session brought me here. I cannot leave without applauding Allygran for her posts on this page. You speak for me! Much as I dislike Trump he seems to be able to avoid long winded and ineffective negotiations. He goes straight to the jugular with his 'take it or leave it' approach and yes, it's been apparent for a while now the the EU is slowly coming apart at the seams. I truly believe we have started its disintegration and other member states will follow our lead. You say it much better than I can Allygran - so bravo! Excellent and insightful posts.

Varian you put the article up. But now it makes a clearer point than you indicated, it is not to be taken seriously.

Oh Varian, are you sure your not a kid, your so inconsistent and seem to think no one notices. It's really weird!

I don't believe what you said. I believe that the EU do need us. The EU are in a bind, if they give us a good deal similar to the Japanese deal then others will want to leave. If they don't then we walk away no divorce payment, no further on going payments and we leave them with a black hole financially of around 73 Billion euros in the next fiscal year. Plus the loss of exports and imports. The disruption to the EEA Country's who have already been alerted that they will have to pay more, and most have refused. There have been warnings of cut backs by the EU to EEA members. We are the second largest contributor to the EU coffers. Take a look at the EU documents, the situation is not good. There is a report on the consequences of Brexit and tomorrow when I am less tired I will try to find the link for you. This is not a good situation for the EU trading organisation. It might on the other hand be very good for those in the 27 who want to get out as well. Italy has said it will just leave, it can't be any worse off than it is now. My guess is Hungary and Bulgaria will follow and Greece will keep taking the bail out's for as long as possible. The EU I guess will do one of two things, it will tighten it's grip, or it will attempt to be more flexible, which is all David Cameron wanted in the first place. The EU intransigence has been the beginning of their demise.

Trump has put them in a bind as well with his protectionist policy on steel in order to protect his own Country and rightly so in my view. Trump in doing that has played a great card, he is making them come to the table to talk. This man may not be what we all imagine to be a President, but boy does he know how to conduct business. He is playing hard ball, and the EU thought they were the big boys on the block.....now they have their equal as far as business is concerned. He might be a rotten diplomat and Politician,people might not like him or his comb over but he isn't in it for the popularity and that is what makes him strong, he doesn't have to be liked. His objective is getting America back to work, and putting his own citizens first, until they are back on their feet again. You can only help other if your first strong and healthy yourself the same applies to Country's. The predators sniff out the weak, and show no mercy. Thank goodness that Theresa May now has a strong card to play. That poor woman has been mauled by the EU predators, they have play with her like a cat with a mouse. Well our mouse has turned!!

An article in the Express obviously has to be taken with a pinch of salt. "They need us .more than we need them" is part of the Eurosceptic mythology.

Varian the Express article you gave a link to is clearly showing that the EU is panic stricken that we will walk away. The academic you quote is a German scholar and is writing for a LSE Blog. He is advising the EU not us to put a moratorium option to Theresa May.

He says:
^"A moratorium is one way forward, assuming the current UK government holds. If Brexit happens, let's get it right.
"The EU should offer the UK a moratorium of up to five years, during which it will remain a member with full rights and obligations."^
Prof Anheier made the comments amid growing concerns that the UK will crash out of the EU without a trade deal.
Professor Anheim:
"Writing on the London School of Economics' Europe blog, he said: "The answer is certainly not a second referendum".
Prof Anheier made the comments amid growing concerns that the UK will crash out of the EU without a trade deal.Prof Helmut K Anheier, a German-American academic, urged EU officials to delay Britain's exit from the bloc until 2024.

"Earlier today, Theresa May said the British public should take "reassurance and comfort" from Government preparations for a no-deal Brexit."
But she insisted the Government was being "responsible and sensible" while still trying to get a good deal with the European Union."

She said: I believe we can get a good deal, but because we don't know what the outcome is going to be let's prepare for every eventuality."

^Barclays' Chairman John McFarlane has insisted that the banking industry will emerge unscathed and continue to thrive internationally once the UK is free of Brussels rule.
Mr McFarlane said he believes that the City of London will remain one of the top two financial centre in the world along with New York^.
^His comments to Reuters came amid increasing attempts by Remain supporters to claim that thousands of people will desert the City with Brexit and head to Paris or Frankfurt.
McFarlane shrugged off fears expressed by some bankers and politicians that a blueprint for Britain's future trading relationship with the European Union, proposed by Prime Minister Theresa May, would cripple job creation and trigger London's rapid decline as a global financial services centre."I don't think in the long run that there will be terminal damage [to London]," McFarlane said in an interview in his capacity as chair of lobby group The CityUK^
But McFarlane said London would remain Europe's primary hub for financial services because the city has the continent's deepest markets and broadest pool of talent, scotching doomsayers who claim the sector could end up the biggest loser from the end of unfettered access to EU markets.
"Supporters of Brexit admit there may be some short-term pain for Britain's $2.9 trillion economy, but that long term it will prosper when cut free from the EU which they cast as a failing German-dominated experiment in European integration."

A sharp spike in Italy's cost of borrowing in late May also handed EU stakeholders a sobering reminder that the EU needs London's markets as much as London needs the EU, Mr McFarlane said.
"Short-term Italian bond yields suffered the biggest one-day jump since 1992 on May 29 after a fresh phase of political turmoil forced the government to pay the highest yield in more than five years at an auction of six-month debt.
And when prices tumbled, London-based traders and market makers with age-old relationships with the world's biggest investors executed the largest volume of Italian government bond trading, McFarlane pointed out.
"The only reason that was dealt with is because London existed. Given that we have a competitive advantage in those areas that is not easily replicated, that is a fair argument for why people need to use this system going forward. Because it is better than the alternative," he said.
The financial sector accounts for 12 percent of Britain's economic output, but McFarlane said the government's dismissal of the sector's preferred plans for access to the EU single market post-Brexit will not be as destructive as some commentators have predicted.

At last we have a negotiating position. Now the EU know we are preparing to walk away, we might be taken seriously. We are prepared. Negotiation can only happen from a position of being prepared to walk away. Thank goodness we now have a seat at the table. My view is that the negotiators in the EU have been laughing up their sleeves at us, because Theresa May had no cards up her sleeve, now she has. What a set up...the EU is!!

Seconded.

Allgran
Good post

Actually no Mostly, the UKIP vote sensibly transferred to either Conservative or Labour, where they knew it would make the most impact.

Greta, The average man on the Street" will be a different man or woman on every Street in this UK. All to varying degrees will listen to news reports, watch TV when analysis (although bias if I recall in favour or remain) is constant and again, if I recall negative and scaremongering. Those varying average people in the street who did vote with their instinct, heart and you failed to mention head, and obviously optimism for the future, or even clinging to what they know, are all of us. I am average when in my circle of friends and neighbours, you are average when in your circle of friends and neighbours. Realising that one does not have to be a rocket scientist to be able to see that the EU, is bringing down the EEA Country's, like Greece, Italy, and polarising politics into extreme views, or that we have just gone through a long period of austerity because the Euro failed from 2008 to just recently really. Greece has, is on it's knees, Italy is on it's knee, high levels of unemployment through the EEA Country's. The man and woman in the Street us, even the rocket scientist, will either see or refuse to see, we cannot all make the same decision about the evidence before us, that would make us automatons.

We the average man and woman in the Streets, also saw and heard, analysed, synthesized and evaluated (we all might not have been able to label that process, but that is what we did) that the EU was being difficult with the UK and saw and heard that Cameron their PM was treated like s--t, whilst claiming a victory with the EU adjustments he sought, he actually failed spectacularly, since they would not deal, or they suspended or they prevaricated just as they are doing now.

As you might think some average men and women in the Street, might not read the Parliamentary papers, although some might, we can all mostly read, and mostly we are educated to a greater or lesser degree, some might even have been to University, others might have worked their way up the greasy pole of the "corporate ladder", others might own their own SME or MME, some could be ill, some could do a myriad of types of work. I could go on. Some who can might just not be interested, others who find it more difficult but have a great interest might make the effort to find information. One cannot generalise.

I have said this before too, generalisation is the most destructive group labelling, and othering that one can be engaged in. It is dangerous and indicates an ignorance born of more than a lack of education by the generaliser that goes with arrogance as far as I am concerned.

So as an average woman in the Street, I can categorically say, that I have been weighing up the EU for years, I have been watching the referendum developing as the EU co-operation declined since 2013. No one in the UK or even in the EEA could have failed to notice, not even us the average people in the Street, that Brexit was inevitable. If you missed that possibility of Brexit, and it seems some did, the way out is to discredit those who did anticipate, analyse, synthesize and evaluate and attempt to down grade them as the “average man in the Street” therefore he must be wrong because, well as you put it he is only ”the average man in the Street” It is clearly unbearable for some to acknowledge that those who saw something they didn't, must be unable to analyse or read Parliamentary docs, or watch Parliament on the Box....or they must read the Sun, so! Disgraceful, othering...shame! I should say that not all of those who prefer to remain are engaged in attacking those who prefer to leave. Some people are accepting of the majority vote system in this Country and have got behind it. One cannot generalise.

For a time I travelled on the train between Manchester Picadilly and Chester each morning, the carriage was empty usually between Piccadilly and Marple, a scruffy, man with greasy long haired, unshaven, down at the heel shoes, carrying a brief case, there was often a slight wiff as he walked past to his seat. Every day he took out of his brief case the Financial Times. It intrigued me, I never did pluck up the cheek to ask him, because that would have been arrogant. So a good adage, that my Mother and Father taught me was never, never judge a book by it's cover. I offer that to you as words of wisdom that you would do well to take on board. Particularly when generalising about the leave voter. Our 'averageness' makes us powerfully invisible.

Brexit is an evolving negotiation, we are walking on new ground, no one is absolutely certain about how things will pan out...but why would you think that your Government would not be writing Parliamentary advice research papers on every subject, every departmental involvement, every Statute being reviewed and amended or re-written. That the permit system for financial trading would not have an emergency system in place in case of non co-operation by the EU, which is highly likely. Come on!! There is of course the extreme political element to all this, a high degree of self interest's and I sense a lot of destructive opportunism in the form of Political activism and some spectacular narrowmindedness. Only in some of course.

Yes allyg you’re right, the UKIP vote collapsed in the 2017 GE.
Doesn’t that directly disprove your point that the election gave a mandate for Brexit as UKIP is basically a one issue Pro-Brexit Party and it was virtually wiped out?

Brexit isn't sacred' EU exit should be DELAYED for five years, says expert.

Brexit negotiations should be paused for five years to resolve the deadlock between Brussels and the UK, a political expert has claimed.

www.express.co.uk/news/politics/994244/Brexit-latest-news-Theresa-May-European-Union-negotiations-delay