If there was another EU referendum...

Pollaidh, I too am a remainer, when we leave I feel we will be taking a backwards step, whilst I accept being in the EU has many pit falls, & if we weren’t in it & were asked to vote now ,I would not necessarily vote to join . My main reasons for remaining are that I feel it’s better to be part of the decision making & benefits.( there are definitely some) than what seems to me to be long walk off a short Pier. There is so much to unpick it will be years before we will see the folly or not of this decision, in the mean time so many people’s lives will be severely disrupted. We should be making it better for the benifit of us all, I am not sure that this is what will happen. No one knows that’s the problem .

I'm finding the 'Give up on Brexit' thread very interesting.

Someone add a post please before Ally & I exchange hugs!?thanks for the flowers

Probably very alike??

Let's hope not Bridgeit, that would be interesting.

And this is where we differ Allyg , We both post in our own indomitable ways,never the Twain shall meet.

Bridgeit, I must say that I don't think I have ever seen a contribution to a thread that you have made that has been more than an agreement or a condemnation, or a reprimand. I could of course be wrong and have missed them.

Sadly , born of necessity,

As do you Bridgeit, in fact everything you have said here applies to you.

Yes Greta & aren’t we all, the very reason I rarely bother to post.But Ally has a history of policing others posts whilst heartily putting the boot in to others, albeit in fancyfull terms. I shall now once again remove myself from this thread .

Yes, Bridgeit. The mote in your brother's eye...

Allygran although you can be very informative & knowledgeable you also have one or two attributes yourself but I’m not sure that blinkered self opinionation is conducive to good debate. It is quite astonishing that you cannot see in yourself that which attribute to others.

Dear, dear, reverting to type I see girls/boys.

According to Allygran, "If Alexa and Varian are right, they are telling me that 17.5 million voters are living in industrial wastelands, and are unemployed, uneducated and living on "handouts" as your friend's Alexa and Varian claimed in separate post's."

What utter rubbish! I have certainly never claimed any such thing nor, as far as I know has Alexa or anyone else.

I don't know how many times this needs to be repeated, it has certainly been spellt out before, that the many surveys after the EU referendum which examined the characteristics of leave voters and examined their reasons for voting as they did, all dealt in statistics.

No-one has ever said or implied that everyone who voted leave conforms to any of these categories. Anyone who purports to have an interest in politics and economics ought to understand the basics of statistics - it deals with patterns, not individual cases. Failure to grasp this fundamental point is in itself revealing.

Perhaps the best way forward is a bit like with Trump - and just ignore, as there is no way intelligent facts and infored debate is achieving anything much at all.

Ally - I'm probably one of those you mention.
I can't help it, you have such a bossy manner, also haughty and dismissive as Eloethan says.
Can't help teasing sometimes. I'll try to stop (smile).
Though you do seem very knowledgeable about politics economics etc.

'that is actually perceived for what it is, a sign of insecurity or inability to articulate'

or perhaps it is an indication of the amount of frustration re being able to have any informed discussion... always blocked by pages of 'cut and paste' rather than debate, combined with personal and derogatry comments - of which a few of you seem to specialise. Once that frustration builds up, and you get the feeling there is no point going on ... then sarcasm takes over.

Which is indeed unpleasant and useless in this context... I'll put my hands up to that. Apologise even. But talk about pots and kettles !

Allygran Whilst accusing people of "sliding" derogatory remarks into their posts, you then state that such people are insecure and inarticulate.

The somewhat haughty and dismissive way in which you address some posters, in my opinion anyway, detracts from any valid points you might be making.

MaizieD, I have to agree with you about being "horrified" by the way people interpret things. What fascinates me is the need for some to slide into a post, a derogatory remark, a personal attack, or simply a comment that makes them feel smart, that is actually perceived for what it is, a sign of insecurity or inability to articulate. For some they simply find that easier than answering or building on a post and for that reason, they are almost forgivable or ignorable. But with people like yourself, capable of engaging with and adding to, or challenging, a well informed post, in a civilised manner it is so sad when you throw these unnecessary comments in. You really are above that in my view based on the stuff you put onto threads, and the interesting post's we have managed on a couple of occasions, and for that reason I wish you would not chuck in these personal put-downs. It doesn't offend because I switch this machine off and you no longer exist, it just disappoints when you are so articulate and informative most of the time then suddenly slip in the put-downs and you seem like a different person. I say this with the greatest respect.

MaizieD, why oh why do you diminish yourself, by being so snide. You said:

"that it is much more valuable to everyone if people who have found things out shared the origins of the finding rather than just direct people to the search engine".

A link is to the search engine, the origin is the text surely.

I really wish you'd relate your comments to the exchange you are commenting on, ally. I was told to do my own research. One does research online by way of a search engine. If one is told to do one's own research one is, in effect, being directed to a search engine. If you look at the original exchange you will see that no links at all were given, so no originating text.

I'm afraid that I only find anecdotes useful if they illustrate data. Surely we should know by now that one person's experience of something doesn't necessarily indicate a universal 'truth'. The data might confirm it or disprove it but without the data it's just an anecdote.

We had a thread on perceptions and reality a while ago. It was interesting...

'Snide' is, of course, an entirely personal interpretation. I am constantly fascinated (or horrified) by the way people interpret things...

You are correct Greta. My apology.

You are asking if I can see the connection between the leave vote as a protest against the EU, well yes I can see that it would have played a great part in the 17.5million voting leave, along with other reasons. The connection you are attempting to make is of course: the "message" of the day, being that leave voters are from deprived area's and voted against the EU instead of the blaming the Government, if I have read your comments correctly.

One of the ways I can address this is to first ask you to consider that there were two votes: the referendum and the General Election. The referendum, majority voted leave, the General Election the Government and Opposition party's both stood on a pro Brexit mandate. This would indicate that the majority of people in the UK wish to leave the EU, having been presented with a cross party vote and then a party political vote with a Brexit option and then a Brexit mandate in the two main political party's. The sensible answer is to say that there would have been a wide variety of mixed reason's why people voted both remain and leave, and in the General Election the two main pro Brexit party's both got in to Parliament, as Government and Opposition..

One thing that comes to mind of course is that you might be saying, since your post is supporting Alexa's post, that leave voters are deprived and living in industrial wastelands, not the exact words used by Alexa but the essence is there. If Alexa and Varian are right, they are telling me that 17.5 million voters are living in industrial wastelands, and are unemployed, uneducated and living on "handouts" as your friend's Alexa and Varian claimed in separate post's. Then a different group or the same group of voters plus others, then voted for both the Conservative and Labour Party's at the General Election which would be the total of all who voted for both Party's, the figures I could look up, but feel it is unnecessary since the point is made I think.

Allygran1: ^However you originally said the it was a protest vote against the Government, I have put that more politely than you did.
Now you are saying that the EU caused the protest vote? Which is it?^

I never mentioned the word Government in my post. Are you confusing me with another poster?

Greta, I think we are agreeing here, you said:

"Yes, the referendum was about remaining in or leaving the EU. However, many leave voters saw the EU as the main cause of many of our problems. Can't you see the link? It was a very emotionally charged campaign".

However you originally said the it was a protest vote against the Government, I have put that more politely than you did.
Now you are saying that the EU caused the protest vote? Which is it?

Greta since you began the discussion, you first. When you can support your claims, then I will support mine.