If there was another EU referendum...

Fennel Tue 10-Jul-18 18:10:39
"Ally
I have to admire (?) your 'debating' tactics .
1) Long cut&paste posts. Flooding.
2) Answering a question with a question. I know that one because my husband uses it.
3) Attacking the player not the ball. Last resort."

Fennel, you really should not play these sort's of games. You are the most guilty of all of these. I believe that I am always as polite as is humanly possible with you and your support group.

It was me, who pointed out that you should play the ball not the player to your support group some time ago.

As far as I know I ask questions when your statements are unsupported, or inaccurate, or simply misrepresent the point your making.

If you would like to concentrate on the topic, and not me then we might get somewhere in the thread.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028

"varian Tue 10-Jul-18 18:08:41
It is well established that some (no one has ever said all) of those who voted leave did so as a protest vote, especially so in the forgotten areas of post industrial dereliction."

Varian The statement (above) really does need substantiating from at leat two sources, that are not left wing propaganda.
You talk about "forgotten areas of post industrial dereliction". Can you identify these area?

Allygran1 to Alex.

You imply that the leave vote was a "protest vote", if it was and that is not substantiated at all, then surely the protest would be against the EU since the vote was about leaving the E.

Yes, the referendum was about remaining in or leaving the EU. However, many leave voters saw the EU as the main cause of many of our problems. Can't you see the link? It was a very emotionally charged campaign. And no, I will not 'substantiate' my statement but I would invite you to substantiate your claim that it was not as you claim "a protest vote", but a vote for a more promising future in a free market, free of the shackles of a single market and customs union and restrictive regulations for the up and coming generations in a twenty first century world market, then your statement, that the leave vote was "a protest vote" is fallacious.

Why then do you think that most leave voters oppose a Peoples Vote when the terms of the deal are known and understood with the option of remaining in the EU if it is clear that any brexit would leave us all in the UK much worse off?

If you are so confident that leaving is the best thing to do, you should have no reluctance to allow the people to make an informed decision.

I would love it if there WAS another referendum and the result was even more in favour of leaving. The EU is falling apart and we're better off out of it. The 'open door' policy has shown what an incompetent bunch they are.

Allygran1 wrote;

"I am not a remain voter, and I find it impossible to understand your view that Brexit was a protest vote by disadvantaged people in what you call "voting areas to be enriched as of right". Please substantiate your statement."

You might come to understand that human dignity is more important than soft living. Don't you know how psychologically stressed people are in areas where many who formerly earned their livings are now dependent on grudging handouts from the Tories?

I guess , Allygran, that you would not consider a universal living wage even it it were viable.

Only a matter of time before Hitler is mentioned, Fennel

Ally
I have to admire (?) your 'debating' tactics .
1) Long cut&paste posts. Flooding.
2) Answering a question with a question. I know that one because my husband uses it.
3) Attacking the player not the ball. Last resort.

It is well established that some (no one has ever said all) of those who voted leave did so as a protest vote, especially so in the forgotten areas of post industrial dereliction.

Obviously others voted for other reasons, but those who did make a protest vote, especially in these areas, were not specifically warned that if we left the EU, their areas were likely to suffer the most.

Alexa, Alexa Tue 10-Jul-18 15:05:36
"If, as a Remainer, you understand how Brexit was a protest vote you understand how important it was and is for disadvantaged people and voting areas to be enriched as of right."

I am not a remain voter, and I find it impossible to understand your view that Brexit was a protest vote by disadvantaged people in what you call "voting areas to be enriched as of right". Please substantiate your statement.

You imply that the leave vote was a "protest vote", if it was and that is not substantiated at all, then surely the protest would be against the EU since the vote was about leaving the EU.

If, as I and other's believe, it was not as you claim "a protest vote", but a vote for a more promising future in a free market, free of the shackles of a single market and customs union and restrictive regulations for the up and coming generations in a twenty first century world market, then your statement, that the leave vote was "a protest vote" is fallacious.

You are not comparing apples with apples Varian. Therefore your argument cannot stand up to scrutiny.

varian Tue 10-Jul-18 16:57:13
"The sad thing is that most of those who voted leave as a protest vote were actually protesting about the neglect of successive British governments"
"The areas of post-industrial dereliction never truly recovered in spite of the injection of EU funds. These areas are now likely to be further impoverished by the brexit so many mistakenly voted for. It is unkind to talk about "turkeys voting for xmas" although that does reflect the facts. It is actually very sad."

You say:
"The sad thing is that most of those who voted leave as a protest vote were actually protesting about the neglect of successive British governments". First, why do you think that the leave vote was a protest vote against the Government, since it was about leaving the EU? It could be reasonably considered a protest vote against the EU wouldn't you think?
This is of course if and only if one considers the leave vote a protest vote at all. It might just be considered a vote for a better future, a twenty first century future.
You go on to say:
"The areas of post-industrial dereliction never truly recovered in spite of the injection of EU funds. These areas are now likely to be further impoverished by the brexit".
Substantiate your statements please.

In the same post, you then go on to denigration of leave voters. Your comment "turkeys voting for xmas", is shame on you Varian.

You are right, I should have said "in Northern European EU countries", not the entire EU. Only one region in Belgium was in the list of the poorest ten regions.

Surely if we had more competent governments we should have kept pace with France, Belgium, The Netherlands, Austria, Germany, Finland, Sweden, Norway and Denmark?

Varian your post is another misleading piece.
It also had hidden in the text:
"It is also important that no British regions feature in the 20 poorest regions overall in the European Union according to the Eurostat data: they are all in Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary and Poland."

www.indy100.com/article/are-9-of-the-poorest-regions-in-northern-europe-really-in-the-uk--eJ0axHCqmx

Competition in pharmaceutical purchasing in the NHS would not be a bad thing. The cost of pharmaceuticals is atrocious because it is a closed market. Once opened up it will be a buyers market and will result in competitive pricing. That has to be good for NHS purchasing cost's.

The article only refers to pharmaceutical's, not a break up of the NHS.

The sad thing is that most of those who voted leave as a protest vote were actually protesting about the neglect of successive British governments, starting in the 1980s. Margaret Thatcher deliberately decimated the traditional heavy industries for entirely doctrinaire reasons. She hated Trade Unions, especially the NUM, and stockpiled imported coal (at taxpayers' expense) to bring the miners to their knees.

The areas of post-industrial dereliction never truly recovered in spite of the injection of EU funds. These areas are now likely to be further impoverished by the brexit so many mistakenly voted for. It is unkind to talk about "turkeys voting for xmas" although that does reflect the facts. It is actually very sad.

Figures from 2014 showed that nine of the ten poorest regions in all of the EU countries were in England, Wales or Northern Ireland. Only one of our regions (London) was in the richest ten regions. That was the fault of UK governments.

www.indy100.com/article/are-9-of-the-poorest-regions-in-northern-europe-really-in-the-uk--eJ0axHCqmx

MaizieD, why oh why do you diminish yourself, by being so snide. You said:

"that it is much more valuable to everyone if people who have found things out shared the origins of the finding rather than just direct people to the search engine".

A link is to the search engine, the origin is the text surely.

Alexa, the fact that voters are not "economics or politics graduates", does not mean that they are unable to understand the economics of the Country, or research the figures presented to them. Nor does it mean that they are unable to understand the politics of an argument or debate conducted in the National arena. I have said this before, but it stands repeating, education does not equate to intelligence.

If, as a Remainer, you understand how Brexit was a protest vote you understand how important it was and is for disadvantaged people and voting areas to be enriched as of right.

Britain leaving the European Union could lead to the “break-up” of the NHS, one of the world’s leading Brexit experts has told The Independent. Professor Alex de Ruyter, director of the Centre for Brexit Studies at Birmingham City University (BCU), warned any future trade deal with the US would mean American pharmaceutical companies looking to access the health service.

His warning comes just months after Theresa May stoked fears of an NHS “for sale” in a future trade deal with the US, after she refused to say it would be excluded from talks. “The NHS is the biggest market for drugs, probably in the world,” Mr de Ruyter said. “It basically sets the price of pharmaceuticals in Europe. So outside of the EU, big pharma in the US will obviously want access to that, so you potentially could see the break-up of big chunks of the NHS.”.......

Mr de Ruyter also warned there was going to be no easy way to heal divides between Remain and Leave voters, regardless of any final settlement. “There’s no evidence out there that people have moved on, and bringing them together implies that you can talk to each other, whereas people seem today even more entrenched in their views,” he said. Despite the vote for Leave, he said there was “maybe a one in 10 chance” the country would remain in the EU. “I wouldn’t rule it out,” he added.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-us-trade-deal-nhs-trump-theresa-may-alex-de-ruyter-a8390021.html

Well MaizieD, I never thought I would see you agree with those of us who do cut and paste so people can read the information without messing with a link

I'm not agreeing with you at all. You really seem to have a problem with understanding English.

Joelsnan's posts contained no evidence whatsoever to back up her assertions. A link would have been most welcome. Huge chunks of copied and pasted text are not welcome. Especially when they are not presented in such a way as to be easily distinguishable from the poster's own words. I am not the only poster who has pointed this out to you.

There is a happy medium between to much information and not enough information.

Allygran wrote:

"Alexa, I can't agree with you that most voters are ignorant about economics. Generalising is so unscientific don't you find. The only way to be taken seriously is to back up a statement with some data, or rationale, that is what I was taught."

I am sure enough that only a small minority of voters are economics or politics graduates. If you are not sure of this you are out of touch with social reality.

I am also sure that those powerful media men who were interested in Brexit did work upon feelings of loss of human dignity among communities where heavy industry used to be an immense source of soul satisfaction among the workers but is no more.

Well MaizieD, I never thought I would see you agree with those of us who do cut and paste so people can read the information without messing with a link, unless they want to check the information of course.
Your words are music to my ears and no doubt a number of other posters as well.
MaizieD said:
"that it is much more valuable to everyone if people who have found things out shared the origins of the finding rather than just direct people to the search engine".

I cannot agree more!

Thanks for the good advice Lemon.