Given up on Brexit

Don't worry kittylester. Anyone who reads these threads can soon form their own judgement about some of the posters.

I think we can all understand why jura2 would sooo admire Emily Thornberry. Hatred of 'white Van Man' and the flag of St George. A perfect pair.

Grandad. The EU protects what each country produces. So we should be making our own cars. So no need for JIT. Instead of austerity we should have been borrowing cheap money and investing in our own country. Our kids education. Growing our GDP. We have not lived within our means for 35 years. Being part of the EU hasn’t worked for us. Yes I am amazed at how entwined we are but we have been kept in the dark. Globalisation plays a big part in this has given jobs, which is good but it’s not enough. A lot low paid. Working in a bullying environment. We need more of our own companies so everything we make is spent on us in this country. We can’t keep importing. That means we are giving money away. We can’t seem to control the large global companies who Weald so much power with the EU and our government. Our government need to work for us. Have a vision. Obviously imports are sometimes necessary but the balance is not in our favour. We need good relationships. Remainers are guessing when they think things will remain the same or if we do that, they will do this. I am so glad, even if we don’t leave that we now see things for what they are. I think all our knowledge has grown. It’s power. Never in my life have I thought proportional representation is a way of getting new parties to vote for. Or start a new party. Our governments have made so many people dependent. When we all voted independently. I only knew what my husband was going to vote. I am finding that remainers seem to think those deciding to leave was a personal attack on them. Who knew how the vote would go. More remainers should have voted. That’s not the leavers fault. If that’s what they wanted. I watched, read, and spoke to so many people before I voted. There is no need for people to be rude about each other. Either way is a risk. Some losers and some winners. Hopefully in the future we will all be winners. The high profile remainers and leavers all have vested interests either way.

Lucky legs cheer-up. This Country is far from down and out.
Next week the White Paper is out and that set's out the negotiation with the EU. My feeling is that the EU will be unbending and intransigent as they are, not just with us, but with any Country that wishes to leave, read about Greenlands experience some years ago. Also the problems that EFTA Country Switzerland is having trying to stop freedom of movement, and they are not full members, but in order to get access to the single market they had to surrender their independence to make the decision to stop free movement. The EU is now withholding bilateral agreements up for renewal to force Switzerland to drop the resistance to freedom of movement.

This is what is being proposed by our Government in the White Paper, only the headings:

"We're delivering on the democratic decision of the British people. The Prime Minister has set out a realistic and practical vision that delivers the referendum decision in full. As we leave the EU, free movement is coming to an end, the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice will no longer apply, and the days of sending vast sums of money to Brussels every year are over for good. This plan is a good deal for Britain, for the British people and for businesses in this country. However, if we cannot reach agreement with the EU, the Prime Minister is clear that no deal remains better than a bad deal and preparations for this are being intensified.
Our plan for the right Brexit for Britain means:
1. Leaving the European Union on 29th March 2019.
2. A complete end to freedom of movement, taking back control of our borders.
3. An end to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice in the UK, restoring the supremacy of British courts.
4. No more sending vast sums of money each year to the EU – instead a Brexit dividend to spend on domestic priorities like our long-term plan for the NHS.
5. Frictionless trade in goods and flexibility on services.
6. No hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland – or between Northern Ireland and Great Britain.
7. A Parliamentary lock on all new rules and regulations.
8. A commitment to maintain high standards on consumer and employment rights and the environment.
9. Leaving the Common Agricultural Policy and the Common Fisheries Policy.
10. The freedom to strike new trade deals around the world – and we’re already consulting on these.
11. Continued security co-operation to keep our people safe. 12. An independent foreign and defence policy.

What I want to know more about is:
"A Parliamentary lock on all new rules and regulations" and
"frictionless trade in goods and flexibility on services".

Is frictionless trade in goods and flexibility on services going to be through being an EFTA country, or Unilateral Free Trade Agreements, or a CETA type arrangement as with Canada and the EU, or WTO, or OCT?

The 'Parliamentary lock" raises other issues, since the EU is committed to the paradigm of the four pillars that are embedded in all agreements in some form or another. If it don't get you now, it get's you later when these agreements and treaties come up for renewal, once trapped in the single market as Switzerland is with 66% of it's trade in the EEA even though it is not a member of the EU, it is under the cosh, so cannot allow the independence it thought it had to be introduced because it will be punished by the EU withholding bilateral agreements. The EU Trap.

This is a link www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2018/603866/EXPO_STU(2018)603866_EN.pdf to an EU document that tell's us what the EU will always impose, and that means that Britain is being forced into leaving the EU because the alternative is a bad deal. This is my view.

The EU has strung our PM along, who in my view is trying to negotiate the un-negotiable, because the options as far as the EU (if you read the link document) have never been on the table.

Those who have resigned from the Cabinet are not resigning because of the PM, they are resigning because of the EU. There is no negotiation possible, it has to be the EU way either as a full member or the back door through EFTA or a Canadian type agreement that means that the free trade with the rest of the world is possible, but that the preferential tariffs apply to EEA Country's making trade for Canada with the rest of the world so difficult, since it is not even a fair competitive market. The rest of the world will look elsewhere. Big mistake Canada.

The other option is being a "satellite" Country such as Greenland and the Faroes are, again linked in to the EU regulations via the backdoor, but with some no compromise on the four pillars for those two country's because they are Danish affiliates and the controls come second hand via the agreements and treaties with Denmark.

It is impossible to escape the EU. It is incestious, insidious and undemocratic. Because of these things it will fail, it is disintegrating now, Hungary, Bulgaria, Italy, Greece, Slovakia and of course the UK leaving. The EU is already calculating it will have a financial blackhole of 70 plus million euro's when we leave, and that will have to be made up by the other Country's many of whom have already said they will not pay more. Cut backs are already planned across the 27.

This link is so revealing about the EU, from the EU:
www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2018/603866/EXPO_STU(2018)603866_EN.pdf

I am a remainer but not a high profile remainer. I voted to remain in the EU because I appreciated the benefits of EU membership, because I thought about the ramifications of a vote to leave, in particular the problem of the Irish border, but mostly because I wanted my grandchildren and their children to be part of a collaborative Europe and not to be restricted to an uncertain future as citizens of a once great nation which had descended to become an international joke.

Why would anyone who actually understood what leaving the EU might mean choose that for their grandchildren?

How true janeainsworth, goes faster and faster I find.

Varian, because the EU is of it's time, it was right for the last Century but it is wrong for the twenty-first century. You can see for yourself that it is a failing system. The very things that it formed to prevent it has created by it's rigid, conformist regulatory and entrapment a political Europe that is polarising to the extremes of right and left. Based on the horseshoe theory of extremism, that means that at the far end of any extreme groups there is danger of fascism, the very thing that European Project was to avoid. Now it is back because of economic downturn, high unemployment, handout's that make people feel devalued and of course freedom of movement has caused massive population overload in most Cities in the wealthier Country's in the EEA. Legal migrants entitled by EU law to live anywhere. Infrastructures are under pressure, hospitals, education, housing, social structures are breaking down. Ghetto's of legal migrants are feeling disenfranchised and there are some area's considered to be breeding grounds for radicalisation. Let's stop looking at Europe through rose coloured glasses. Living in the large cities of Europe for some has not got streets paved with gold, and everyone skipping around holding hands garlanded with flowers.

The future is not protectionist, as the EU is. Free trade, opening ourselves up to the world, that is the future for our up and coming Generations. The Twenty First Century not the last.

Goobledygook, as we have come to expect. Very informative about the person who posts it but that is all.

Ah Petra 'I think we can all understand why jura2 would sooo admire Emily Thornberry. Hatred of 'white Van Man'

because of course Rees Mogg, BoJo and co just do, for sure. A perfect pair indeed. As for St George, they would not let him in for sure, from Syria.

I think most people would rather win the World Cup than Brexit.

Ally- give us a break ( weary emoji.)
Going to watch the football.

Varian I agree.

to be fair, they have probably never ever met one, so difficult for them to comment

GOAL

Gobbledygook... I have to agree with you, varian

And I have never understood how tweeting a picture of a white van and a St George's flag indicates 'hatred'. It's a very strong word and no-one, apart from Thornberry herself, knows what her precise feelings were when she tweeted.

However, it did a very good job in emotionally manipulating people, didn't it? Like stirring up the 'mob' in the French Revolution; in any Revolution, come to that.

Whether we like it or not it leaving the EU was what the UK voted for. The percentage of those who voted is irrelevant just as it is in a General or local elections. It's what the majority of those who did vote actually voted for. Many years ago UK voted to join the Common Market. Over the years a lot has been added on as well as the number of nations involved. Like it or not we are to leave come what may (No pun intended).

4allweknow- you are joking I hope. Are you aware that the UK has a First Past the Post System, not a proportional one ??? and a Parlamentary Democracy, not a Direct One ???

Totally agree with grannygranbe and I might add why does anybody our age vote Tory in the election when we all know that the NHS will suffer under them and this is the one thing we need at our age. Just saying.

Sadly there are a lot of folk our age whose parents voted Tory, who read right-wing newspapers and have never seriously considered voting any other way.

If they are now retired and have substantial investment income they may think that the same merchant bankers who trashed out economy and got away with it will protect their future. More fool them.

This is different from people whose parents always voted labour and who now follow the tradition?

How judgmental to not allow that people might think as much and as deeply as you but come to a different conclusion.

maizie Emily Thornberry must have felt at the very least, that her white van tweet was inappropriate, or she wouldn’t have resigned, would she?

agreed jane- but at least she had the decency to realise she had made a faux pas' and resign- unlke so many at the moment (well some have resigned, but not because they acknowledged their errors - au contraire)

Whatever her thoughts were when she tweeted that image, she used an image to express her thoughts, rather than the written word.
She should have had the sense to realise that an image is open to many different interpretations, and that there was an inherent danger that it would be misinterpreted.

agreed too kitty- in either case, it is tragic that people would follow family or community tradition on voting without thinking for themselves.

But the First By the Post system is also responsible, as if you live in a Council estate and vote Conservative, your vote goes straight into the bin. And if you live in a leafy suburb or traditional rural Britain, as I did, voting anything else than Conservative, your vote goes straight into the bin ... as mine did every time I voted in the UK, for 40 years- apart from local elections where people did vote Lib Dem, for the hard working, effective guy- and not for any party.

Or in fact, correctly interpreted, as the case may be.