Brexit

Jalima
we want the least damaging brexit
Talk about stating the bleeding obvious

How can remain supporters be so sure that Brexit will end in long term disaster?!!. Because it has become so very obvious to the ever growing numbers in the remain camp just what Brexit will really mean especially if we leave with not so much as a customs agreement.

Only the Daily Mail and Sun toting brigade cannot see that, or is it the old adage come true once again that states "there are none so blind as those that do not wish to see".

Grandad1943
By the same token:
How can remain supporters be so sure that Remaining will not end in long term disaster?

Those who study the EU and the political status therein are aware that to remain would be a long term disaster. Those who only view the superficialities miss the real point of the exercise, to extricate ourselves and develop a strong economy outside the union before the inevitable collapse occurs probably as a result of the Euro, or indeed the growing fractiousness occurring with popular dissent.
The EU knows that the U.K. exit may well be the start of the end and for those who would lose the most will be the ones who demonstrate the greater intransigence, it appears the EU bureaucrats are the most intransigent.
Focussing on the four pillars is an issue because many other countries have real problems with these ‘pillars ‘ which could be resolved, however this shows the real evidence of intransigence at work where the treaty is only benefiting a smaller but stronger sector of the EU resulting in hardship on one side and gain on the other.

I couldn't agree with you more Joelsnan. Although it has been said again and again, remainers simply cannot or will not see the reason that we leavers are adamant that getting out of this juggernaut which only benefits the wealthy, both people and countries is the best thing this country can do to avoid or at least soften the disaster that will overwhelm us all, if/when, as we see it, the EU inevitably collapses as all other Empires/Federations have done since time began. We can, and will do well looking outwards, being so solely dependent on the EU is foolish and dangerous in the extreme.

All this stuff about the 'four pillars' is hogwash. What you Leavers are really objecting to is just one pillar, free movement of workers. I don't think you care at all about free movement of goods or services. Please be honest about your xenophobia.

MaizieD
I find your inference to xenophobia highly offensive.
Please do try to conduct intellegent debate without constant personal attack. I know this appears difficult, but a good debate relys on polite consideration even if you disagree.

MaizieD
Would you say that the Germans are being xenophobic ( one of the most generous countries Re immigration) where they are now considering putting up 'some' border controls on their French and Swiss borders.
Source: Al Jezeera.

In desperation, the leave supporters now turn to degrading the European Union by addressing it as an empire or federation when nothing could further from the truth. The EU is a group of independent European nations that have come together to trade and cooperate under a set of freely agreed rules applicable to all equally.

No nation was forced to join the EU and any nation can freely leave as has been pointed out in the case of Britain. However, no country can be outside of membership and receive the full benefits of EU trading which seems to have surprised so many in the leave camp in the last two years.

Those leave supporters accuse the European Union negotiators of making it difficult for Britain to leave, but they do not. Indeed, all the EU negotiators are stating would be that the four basic freedoms that underpin the EU must be applied to any non-member country that wishes to trade with the bloc, as are the rules agreed by all member states.

The member states of the European Union may well decide to change the terms of the four freedoms in the years to come. However, at this point in time, no member state is proposing changing those rules just to accommodate Britain leaving the union.

Therefore, perhaps the leave camp should begin to address the huge and immediate problems that will face the UK on leaving especially if that leaving has no Customs agreement contained within it. Most importantly, they should inform all how they will contain and resolve the situation in the ports. perhaps they can also inform us in regard to retaining large companies such as Airbus and the car manufacturers within the UK when a far larger and free-flowing market will be available to them just across the channel.

The government has said that a series of documents is to be released in regard to Britain leaving the EU without any agreement. That statement in itself demonstrates that even this government now realises the dire situation the UK is facing.

So much for David Davis stating “these will be the easiest negotiations ever concluded”.

Sweden election latest: EU referendum is what people REALLY want, says nationalist leader

THE European Union has been branded a “large web of corruption” by Sweden Democrat leader Jimmie Akesson who is campaigning for referendum on leaving the bloc.

Nationalist parties, especially right wing nationalist parties all over Europe are being encouraged by Putin, Bannon et al to subvert and destabilise the EU. Is this really the example you want to follow?

Strange how it's only the very wealthy elite who are so desperate to subvert brexit!!

The very wealthy elite are behind brexit - the foreign billionaires and tax exiles who own the Daily Mail, Telegraph, Sun, and the tiny number of ultra rich currency speculators, the Rees Moggs of this world who stand to make a fast buck from brexit????

varian
What is your perception of Nationalist parties?
Note Putin and Angela Merkel in discussions. Russia supplies most of Eastern Europe and Germany with the majority of their energy needs. I doubt he would subvert, there are easier ways for him to take cintrol if he wanted...turn the gas taps off.

Which he has done that to Ukraine more than once.
I thought U.K. bought some of their energy supplies from Russia.

Do NOT tell me I am xenophobic just because it is perfectly obvious to me and anyone with an ounce of sense that a tiny country like ours simply cannot continue to accept this level of uncontrolled immigration.

First it was those from Eastern Europe, then along came hundreds of thousands from the Middle East, some of whom mean us harm.

Now, we have boatloads of Africans heading to Europe and of course we all know that very many will try to sneak into our country illegally.

Just how many millions of those do you suggest we should take ?

And they say remainders are the ones who peddle ‘Project Fear’.

Remainders, of course.

Why does my auto-correct, auto-correct just as I press post?
Remainers.

nellie I 'd like to subvert brexit.
Does that mean I 'm one of the very wealthy elite?
Hurrah!

I meant, with respect, important (or so they believe) people! like Mandelson Blair, Branson, you know, the tax dodger, that Branson! Pattern, those sort of people!

Some of the wealthy elite are very pro-Brexit. I should imagine getting out of the EU just as their new tax avoidance measures are coming into force might well colour some of their thinking.

So we can dismiss your earlier post as yet another inaccurate sweeping generalisation?
(Despite the use of the word 'only').

The Blitz spirit:

mcem. You can do what you like, its of supreme disinterest. (shrug!)

Grandad1943 Sun 19-Aug-18 10:26:12

" In desperation, the leave supporters now turn to degrading the European Union by addressing it as an empire or federation when nothing could further from the truth. "
----

Sorry but I do not agree with you .

What do you think of Junkers State of the Union address which to my mind is clearly raising the prospect even further of a Federal Europe.

What do think of Guy Verhofstatdt being appointed the chief Brexit representative for the European parliament. Verhofstadt is a vehement advocate of a Federal Europe.

You also state -

" The EU is a group of independent European nations that have come together to trade and cooperate under a set of freely agreed rules applicable to all equally."

Yes and when they 'came together' initially it was called The Common Market but In early 1990s, the European Community became the basis for the European Union (EU), which was established in 1993 following ratification of the Maastricht Treaty. The treaty called for a strengthened European parliament, the creation of a central European bank and common currency, and a common defense policy.

Who knows if the people of the UK had been given a referendum a referendum before the Maastricht Treaty and The Lisbon Treaty, we may have been in a difference place today and nobody knows if that would have been for better or worse .

I find it interesting the different 'stances' some politicians / parties have taken over the years and why they have drastically changed their opinions when for example they were only too keen for the UK voter to have their say in a referendum ' then ' but ' now ' when we had a referendum and the answer did not sit with their opinion/ view they are at it again and call it irony or hypocrisy they want a second referendum going under the guise of 'The Peoples Vote'.

What the heck was the EU Refendum vote of 2016 if not 'The Peoples Vote'. ?