Labour Party and anti semitism

You will realise I am just catching up with this thread, PECS just seen your denial that JC's allegiances to Hamas, PLO, PLA therefore as you put it ^The sad plight of longstanding refugees in already impoverished countries has nothing of relevance to this particular thread". The relevance surely is that that JC's Hamas et al allegiances, association and support as, you say as representative's of the Palestinian Arab Muslims hosted by Country's in the Levant who you describe as refugees, and as I think I have shown cannot after 70 years be regarded as such, has nothing to do with his attitude to Israel? Nor do you believe does it influence his attitude to antisemite comments and growth of antisemitism in the Labour Party he leads. Well we will have to disagree on that one.

You cannot deny surely that people speaking out about the growth of antisemitism in the Labour Party are being shouted down, ignored, threatened with deselection, or the whip being removed etc. Nor surely can you deny that Corbyn is largely side stepping it and even when he does speak out, the words are worth interrogation, as they can be taken many ways, certainly not an outright denial, or admission of his own position with regard Israel and the Jewish people.

Now just so we are clear, what is being said here is in response to your claim that if you were a Jew you would not get the same response on GN. Yes you would. I for one would put your comments, statements, whatever your religion or stance to the challenge if that is what I though I should do.

In this thread, your comments are creating a response in connection with your denial that Corbyn is influenced by his relationship, support and allegiances to Palestinian Arab Muslim terrorist and legitimised groups who support Palestinian's in camps in host Countries across the Levant for 70 years and his antisemitic Labour party, or his response to those who are challenging antisemitism in the Labour party.

Clearly I believe the two cannot be separated. Corbyn's personal allegiances, political views are influencing the growth of antisemitism in the Corbyn run Labour party, resulting in the persecution of those Labour MP's and members who challenge it.

Corbyn isn’t a Trotskyist......oh yes he is!

Allygran1 about Forbes from Wiki Currently, the website also blocks internet users using ad blocking software (such as Adblock Plus) from accessing articles, demanding that the website be put on the ad blocking software's whitelist before access is granted.[29] Forbes argues that this is done because customers using ad blocking software do not contribute to the site's revenue. Malware attacks have been noted to occur from Forbes site.[30]
I always investigate sites before clicking on links.
The diatribe you have posted was much what I would have expected. If your view is "neutral" I dread to think what bias involves. As for my post. I simply asked a question and your response was to accuse me of certain 'beliefs'. I simply carried your idea to its logical conclusion, something you apparently find distasteful, which of course it is, applied in any form to anyone.
UNRWA still refers to what you term "enclaves"as camps. When someone starts messing with language it always bothers me. It usually is an attempt to make something unacceptable more palatable.
As for why are the Palestinians still there perhaps because they have no homeland to go to.
Incidently Corbyn isn't a "far left Trotskyist" and he has always condemned violence on all sides and by all organisations. But speaking to groups such as Hamas (who I notice again you refuse to refer to as a political organisation) is the only way forward if a peaceful solution is ever to be found. But you do reveal an interesting link by giving your opinion od JC's political beliefs and the accusation of ant-semitism against him.

Having an axe to grind means ( as you know) not being impartial PECS and you certainly don’t sound impartial.
Only thinking of the Palestinian point of view is exactly what the extreme leftwing in the UK do, which in turn can lead to anti-semitism.

My father was fortunate to work as an adviser with UNWRA for a period of time. I see the tree..I see the whole damn forest! I am not sure why you refer to Palstinians with the added words Muslim.Arabs? Whilst Palestinians are of different faiths and none not sure why you single out that group?

PECS I should also say you do seem to have chip on your shoulder: You would certainly not have said that if I was an Israeli or a Jew putting forward reasons to consider Zionist perspective. I can't speak for the person you were addressing, but from my point of view yes I would.

Why would you think that one would only challenge your perspective of Israel and the Jew's but ignore the perspective of an Israeli or a Jewish person's perspective of Palestine? If there is an issue or a question or a reaction even to what you or anyone else say's on here, believe me people will challenge it, support it or question it. The fact that you think we would not concerns me. You seem to be generalising, categorising and incorrectly attributing attitudes to some including me that are wrong.

PECS your story is enlightening and shows the determination and courage that ordinary people can demonstrate in difficult and imposed circumstances. It also demonstrates the ability of human beings to put aside difference and accept without compromise the religious, social, political and economic differences between us.

This story demonstrates perfectly why this thread was put up for discussion. The prevention of the persecution and subjugation of MP's, and members of the Labour Party who find it abhorrent that antisemitic behaviour and views are being seen as acceptable under the Corbyn Labour Party.
Sometime's when people cannot stand up for themselves as with the Jews in the Labour Party and their supporters, then others must speak out, be they Christian's, Jews, Palestinians, whoever. It cannot be right that a any people identified by their religion can be vilified, labelled and "othered". That applies to all.

The danger is that Politicians with strong ideological views don't have the same motivations as their followers, who often don't realise the hidden agenda. It is also sometimes socially acceptable within a narrow social network to be anti Jews because it is the "in -thing" to be against, or it is the "in- thing" to be for Palestinian refugees, therefore we must be against Israel, without really thinking about what it is we are supporting or why we are against. It may be that being for does not need people to be against something else.

Is what we think real, is it now relevant or has that old chestnut become a tree and we just did not notice. The real issues of Palestine and the Arab Muslim Palestinians across the Levant in host Countries, is not now a question of how they came to be there, in 1948, most of those refugees as they were then are no more. It's now why are their descendent still there in what are now not refugee camps, they are massive enclaves in host Countries, Internationally supported communities after 70 years.

An interesting title Sovereignty: Art of Inclusive Exclusions in the link's:
pdfs.semanticscholar.org/5fe7/26e0243501808d403ebb2fb230e5a1b45ba3.pdf

By: Sari Hanafi
Issam Fares Institute for Public Policy and International Affairs American University of Beirut
Also:
www.unrwa.org/who-we-are/frequently-asked-questions

Please if you have time take the opportunity to read them, you may not think you need to know more than you do since, as you told me Palestine is 'who you are" or something like that. But it might just give you one small thing that you did not know. Then you might consider looking at the tree not the chestnut.

Trisher, your post is what I can only describe as selective and out of context, it would be unkind to say deliberately misrepresentative of what I did say.

Let's address each of your "claims".
You say: ^trisher Sat 04-Aug-18 10:14:56
Allygran1 your protestations about the Palestinians plight and your professed neutrality might be acceptable if you were to actually acknowledge some of the things Israel has done.

I recommend that you re-read the post, it is a very long one, but before rushing to a conclusion and making yourself look foolish, it is best to read it.

You then say: You were asked by PECS about Israel attacking soft targets. and claimed to know nothing

What I actually said was: So the answer would be simple I don't know. But that might be a lost opportunity to do some research, --which I have done--.

You then attempt to stop people looking at Forbes by implying, no saying that I haven't checked your posts from Forbes and would urge others not to do so. It is a site notorious for carrying Malware. Please justify that claim.

You then go on to claim you know what I believe:
As for why other Arab countries haven't taken in Palestinians. ^There the evidence of your real beliefs is revealed^". What exactly do you believe my 'real beliefs' to be Trisher?

Your next statement is astounding and much diminishes you in my view. Should we examine all refugees at checkpoints and ascertain their ethnic origins and their religious beliefs and then alot them to countries we feel they belong to? ^So Catholics to Italy perhaps^"? What utter nonsense, I imagine even you would not prescribe to that!

You then excel with your sense of injustice and reveal your beliefs to me Trisher, which I am in no way condemning, since it is your right to believe what you wish. I simply wish to offer you a balanced view, not a neutral one you understand, since I can never claim to be neutral, nor do I respect neutrality since it seems to me that it is a self serving and selfish stance to "sit -on -the -fence" so to speak. However, I do support strongly and believe that whatever one believes, it must be come to by seeing all sides of the issue. By not shying away from admitting that there may be some things that are for and some things that are against our position on a subject one might still retain the original view taken, but with knowledge and understanding of the other persons view, it makes for a balanced position, a new argument rather than a narrow rigid one.

This thread is about antisemitism in the Labour Party and the persecution of those Labour Party members and MP's who stand against antisemitism in the Party.

The reason we got onto Palestine is through the belief that JC is a far left Trotsky, hence his support all his life of terrorist groups.

I was asked by either you or PECS where is the Palestinian voice in this thread, well the Palestinian voice in the broadest sense is that of JC who offers a platform and support's Hamas a terrorist group purporting to represent the Palestinians, amongst other.

What started this thread was the suppression of those against antisemitic voices.

Now as for the reason that Palestinians are still largely not absorbed or integrated into the host Countries across the Levant in the course of nearly 70 years. It is not being helped by those who misdirect the issue to Israel rather than where it should belong after second, third and now fourth generations have been born in what can and must be now called Enclaves not camps. I offer up to you a site that will give you information from the needle to the thread on:

pdfs.semanticscholar.org/5fe7/26e0243501808d403ebb2fb230e5a1b45ba3.pdf

By: Sari Hanafi
Issam Fares Institute for Public Policy and International Affairs American University of Beirut
Also:
www.unrwa.org/who-we-are/frequently-asked-questions

This explains exactly why the vast enclaves of Arab Muslim Palestinians in host Countries across the Levant have not been absorbed or integrated (on the whole) into the host Countries communities. It has nothing to do with the "poor Arab muslim countries to take more than rich Western countries?" since vast amounts of money, aid, education and other service, along with official Governance all funded by mostly 'rich Western country's" as well as the US.

I take great exception to your statement that I " have an axe to grind". You would certainly not have said that if I was an Israeli or a Jew putting forward reasons to consider Zionist perspective. My family has their own diaspora..we are all over the world..as a result of snatching of homes and land. However because my family lived in Palestine ( Nazareth, Jeffa Haifa &Jerusalem) they lived harmoniously alongside Christians, Jews & Muslims and drew good friends from all these 'groups'. Their difficulties and the Nakba occurred because of a political decision and ideology, given strength internationally because of the horror of the Holocaust. So I was brought up to respect people for how they treated you and not because they shared my religious, ethnic or cultural background. The person who my father found great friendship with when he came to London was a Jewish lawyer. He gave my father a pupilage so he could complete his legal qualifications to become a barrister. Joe too had been rejected by the British "old school tie" brigade. He did not care that dad was Palestinian Arab and dad did not care that Joe was Jewish.It was irrelevant to their friendship. Uncle Joe & wife were part of our family. I have always lived in cross cultural communities since I was born .It is my normal to have friends and family from different faiths/ cultures.

Allygran1 your protestations about the Palestinians plight and your professed neutrality might be acceptable if you were to actually acknowledge some of the things Israel has done. You were asked by PECS about Israel attacking soft targets. and claimed to know nothing. It isn't an area I have researched but I did remember an attack on a refugee camp, which when I googled it came up instantly -The Battle of Jenin after which Amnesty condemned Israel for war crimes and Palestinian sources spoke of a massacre. But which certainly left 4000 Palestinian refugees homeless.
I haven't checked your posts from Forbes and would urge others not to do so. It is a site notorious for carrying Malware.
As for why other Arab countries haven't taken in Palestinians. There the evidence of your real beliefs is revealed. Why should they? Should we examine all refugees at checkpoints and ascertain their ethnic origins and their religious beliefs and then alot them to countries we feel they belong to? So Catholics to Italy perhaps? If not why should we expect poor Arab muslim countries to take more than rich Western countries? It's simply a racist argument that you wouldn't be allowed to make if you were discussing Israeli Jewish refugees.

Only a few posts back Jews were referred to as incomers. Said it all for me.

Corbyn has now released a statement , I didn’t think even he could spout such a load of crap .

So you have an axe to grind PECS which is colouring how you view the anti-semitism within the LP.
Unfortunately that same viewpoint ( sympathy only towards the Palestine cause) is exactly what has led to Corbyn’s troubles.

I beg to differ. The Palestinian issue is at the heart of the anti Semitism row in the LP. If JC had not been empathetic to Palestine, met with the elected reps. of Palestine then it would not be a story. It would also be naive to think the Israeli supporters were going to sit back and do nothing. Equally that those who use dissent for their own political ends would not try to manipulate the subject. Add to that the internal power struggles in the party and you have the perfect ingredients to distract us all from the debacle going on in a) the Tory party b) Brexit & c) the rise of the far right.
The sad plight of longstanding refugees in already impoverished countries has nothing of relevance to this particular thread.

PECS that is not the case. Your Palestinian origins are of no concern to me nor would they be if you were a Jew.

This is not what this thread is about. The reason that I have been on this thread is because it is unacceptable that Jewish members of the Labour Party are being treated badly, and those who support them in their complaint are also being bullied, persecuted, through deflection and generally isolated at local and National level.

The fact that Corbyn clearly supports Hamas, which I believe is a terrorist group, and I think that is an Internationally held view too, that he support's terrorist groups like the IRA and has done for over three decades, and his general attitude towards those in his Parliamentary party who have made antisemitic comments is one of ignore it it will fade into the background eventually. Well it isn't because it is unacceptable.

Now if the same was happening to Palestinians although there is not a word like antisemitism to use, although Islamaphobia might be one word, but that does not seem to apply to the Palestinian Arab Muslim for some reason that I can't identify immediately why it doesn't I will have to think about that. However I would oppose that just as vigorously.

The only reason I question your post's is that once an omission is noticed, it make's me question the posters motives that is all.

What I find difficult to take in, is the hatred for Israel, when clearly searching for facts and information, there are so many issues, going back 2000 years or more, in that part of the World.

What bothers me particularly is the fact that so many Palestinians who were born in the camps, see the camps as permanent residences,as does the rest of the World. This cannot be right. This is the real issue for me, and it does not seem to be being addressed, in favour of fighting or blaming the Israeli's.

Now it may be that you can explain that. I am coming to it with a very Western view, you are looking at it from a Palestinian Levant view, and historic embedded one, I understand that. But you must see that for me it is illogical to not have addressed the 'elephant in the room" the Palestinian camps in 70 years. Clearly there are more people in those camps now than the original refugees of 1949. In my view after 70 years people are no longer refugees. The whole matter needs addressing.

But as I suggested in an earlier post, maybe if you want to discuss and enlighten and be enlightened on the subject of the Palestinian camps, and the reasons that they are still there after 70 years, then maybe another thread might be worth considering.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/netanyahu-orb-n-israel-welcome-hungary-prime-minister-antisemitism-a8454866.html

Why is it so outrageous? Jews are just people. They can be good, bad or in between exactly the same as any other people. They are not untouchable or some kind of holy cow that nobody is allowed to criticise if they do wrong. Netanyahu is a very right wing politician. Just do your own research if you are really interested in finding a more balanced view. You won't believe anything I say if I am part Palestinian. If I was Jewish though....

My cousins are fully integrated into Jordanian society as are many other Palestinians forced out of their homes in 47. I think you will find that the refugees still stuck in refugee camps are from more recent conflicts. Jordan is not a wealthy country and has huge numbers of refugees...far higher than here for example. But I am not sure why this is relevant to your arguments?

Allygran1 Fri 03-Aug-18 22:00:35
PECS you say:

Robinson’s imprisonment last May for being in contempt of court sparked protests in several cities in Europe and America. It was later discovered that a notorious hard-line, pro-Israel conservative think tank was paying his legal costs.

I asked:
Can you tell me which notorious hard-line pro-Israel conservative think tank was paying the legal costs for this man?
You sent a link to the Guardian Article which clarified that it was a US Think Tank not sure where you got the pro Israeli bit from.
Not quite accurate to the Guardian report.

Also you say in a different post:

This episode further highlights the embrace of Europe’s fascists by the current Israeli government. Earlier this month the prime minister of Hungary, denounced by Hungarian Jews for running an anti-Sematic campaign, was hosted by Prime Minister of Israel Benjamin Netanyahu. ^Critics have pointed out that there exists a dangerous “unholy alliance between Israel and alt-right ideologues^”.

Are you seriously attempting to align the Jews, the PM of Israel with fascism? Really, really are you saying that the Jews are embracing fascism? It is so counter intuitive it is unbelievable, and appears completely off the wall! This is so extreme that it is abhorrent, and no doubt any Jew who read that would be highly offended.

Has it occurred to you that the PM of Israel might have been discussing the concerns of Jews in Hungary about the Hungarian PM's antisemitic campaign? Or even trade. This is an abhorrent suggestion PECS.

Can you tell me who the "^Critics^" are who point out this is an "^unholy alliance between Israel and alt-right ideologues^"

You really should put up your source when making such outrageous and offensive claims of this nature. What is the source and who are the 'critics" please. I need to be clear where this is coming from.

PECS I have got-it, that TR is a 'dangerous' and I would add extremist man. The response was to Lemongroves 'nutter'......heavy duty help! Oh never mind.

PECS you asked me the question. I attempted to answer it with balance and information.

My psychic abilities are not fully honed yet, otherwise I should have picked up on the fact that Palestine/Israel as you say is part of you. However, you might find a nugget or two of information/history that you might have once dismissed that you are now willing to consider.

So I take it your not going to put up a thread about the reasons why the Arab Muslim Palestinian descendent of people displaced almost 70 years ago, have not been absorbed into Arab Muslim Country's (where most are living in camps) across the Levant? Is this not of concern to you? Surely it is of concern to some organisation like the UN or even the Arab Muslims indigenous to the Countries where the Palestinian Arab Muslims have been resident for so long, in fact in many cases three generations have been born in their host Country. The spotlight needs to be shone on this in the Western world, we are being pointed in the wrong direction I fear. I suspect in the Levant, there is a lot more animosity between the Palestinian Arab Muslim and the indigenous Arab Muslim than the West is aware of. It is not as straight forward as our extreme left wing elite activist would like it to be I suspect.

What???

So he has paid supporters PECS

Please I really don't need history lessons on Palestine /Israel. It is part of me.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/22/us-rightwing-groups-bankroll-campaign-to-free-tommy-robinson

I will look up the links tomorrow but actually the Breibart links have been reported in the FT. Guardian, Independent& Mirror & Middle East Monitor. ..so if you Google you will find it all there. It is not from some unverifiable source. What exactly do you mean TR needs help? He is a dangerous man being feted by the far right all o er US & Europe. Do you not read the papers? You accuse Corbyn's supportes of dismissing things too lightly... I think you need to wske up and smell the fascists!