Labour Party and anti semitism

Yes groupS. not a group . it takes both sides to reach peace

But surely one should talk to both sides and not just one?

Annie if you don’t talk to groups then nothing chances.

I know it doesn’t always work because of the nature of people, but unless someone tries to open a dialogue then how can progress be made.

There is a well known quote which goes something like this
“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

And
“If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem”

ah yes

IRA blows up the British Government , fellow colleagues are mourning so your pacifist invites the leaders to Westminster shortly after the bombing.

Claims he has never spoken to a member of the IRA, Diane Abbott trying to defend him claimed ‘he did share a platform with them but he didn’t speak to them . Beggers the question what did he bother to share the platform for.

Attends memorial services for an IRA member

Adress Hamas , a terrorist group as ‘friends’

Spends Passover with a group of anarchists who openly say they want to destroy Israel.

Refuse to pay respects at the Israeli Holocaust Museum but visits Jordon.

Wants to be PM but openly says he supports a united ireland , as wanted by the IRA dismissing, the fact that loyalists do not want to leave the U.K.

That’s bringing people together ?

Annie I’ve spent evenings in the company of racists, Christians, footballers, keen ramblers, ignorant peasants and an aristocrats. This doesn’t mean I subscribe to their views, hobbies, opinions ethics or philosophies.

Of course Corbyn is a pacifist. You have now shot yourself in the foot because if there’s one thing that everyone knows it is Corbyn’s views on war.

The only way to bring people together is to talk to them and try to influence their beliefs. You condemn a man who does this because you cannot see the benefit of this approach.

POGS: Sorry to confuse you. This is the reason that you seemed to have changed your stance:
My debate is about how do we stop the use of anti-semitism from distracting from the the rise of nationalism and other extreme right policies? The message appeared to be that antisemitism was not important and that it distracted from addressing Nationalism.

In a later post you clearly were saying that you did not support antisemitism in the Labour Party. I must apologies if I misunderstood the post to which I responded.

His sisters married Germans so could be that or his mother saved the lives of Jews during the war, she was living in Germany.

She was buried at Windsor but later her remains were taken to Jerusalem and she was interred on The Mount of Olives.

She was bestowed the honour - Righteous Among the Nations .

Phillip, Charles and William have visited her tomb, William just a few weeks ago.

Not Prince Phillip!!!!!!!

Oh dear annie, words rather fail me! Why Prince Phillip especially?!! The thought of that man being PM just doesn't bear thinking about!

Apologies for the language, a word I never, ever use or allowed to be said in my company

100% sure niggly. Slam in the middle of the uproar he said himself he had spent an enjoyable evening with the group in his constituency, I did print their at the time, he didn’t say they were a far left group who want the destruction of Israel. This angered me, he just said ‘i spent the evening with Jews celebrating Passover and I learned much.

Their prayer ends with

“And fuck the Queen and especially fuck Prince Phillip. Burn down parliment . Full communism . Amen

annie, are you sure?!!!! What an appalling thing to say and for JC to be a party to! I thought I had become unshockable! clearly not!!

Allygran

You have totally confused me . You say:-

"Whilst responding to your earlier post which seemed to indicate that you were not supporting the antisemitic view of the Labour Party and saw it as a distraction from discussing the rise of Nationalism"

What am I missing? Where have I mentioned the antisemitism row as a 'distraction from discussing the rise of Nationalism"?

You also say:-

"So I do hope that you realise that the post is in response to your earlier stance of dismissing antisemitism in the Labour Party and not your latest stance POGS "

I have never taken the stance of dismissing antisemitism in the Labour Party and I am intrigued by your comment. Again , what am I missing?

I think you will find that I have been vocal and taken some flack over the years on GN for raising the subject years ago so perhaps if you wish to understand where my thoughts are you might find reading this old thread interesting.

POGS Thu 17-Mar-16 12:12:56

www.gransnet.com/forums/news_and_politics/1224359-Anti-Semitism-in-Labour-Party-and-Universities

Ally, thank you

I will add, Corbyn was praised here for spending Passover with Jews, he told the media he had a most enjoyable evening. I posted he had spent the evening with a left wing Jewish group Jewdas, they have a prayer which calls for the destruction of Israel - Israel is a steaming pile of sewage which needs to be properly disposed of.

This was this year not when he was a backbencher . How can right wing supporters and the media be accused of making this up.

No pacifist could agree with this , he is not a pacifist

Again Allyg, you have absolutely hit the nail on the head in your very explicit post and I totally agree with everything you say. Both sides have deeply held historic beliefs which would seem to be unsolvable not helped by people in the West exploiting these differences for political gain. Israel is surrounded by hostile neighbours which inevitably has an adverse knock on effect. Hammas whip up the crowd and actively encourage people to riot knowing what the the reaction will be elsewhere. The main aim of Hammas is to drive Israel and all Jews off the face of the earth, they hate them that much! So realistically no deal to be had there. I will ask again why is the West Bank relatively peaceful while Gaza is a tinder box? Allyg your opinion?!! Please!!

POGS Whilst responding to your earlier post which seemed to indicate that you were not supporting the antisemitic view of the Labour Party and saw it as a distraction from discussing the rise of Nationalism, I have now whilst putting my response up seen another post, where you are clearly saying something different. So I do hope that you realise that the post is in response to your earlier stance of dismissing antisemitism in the Labour Party and not your latest stance POGS Wed 01-Aug-18 22:00:03 which as with Anniebach I fully agree with you.

Long Post cut and paste warning!
www.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/why-my-generation-is-indifferent-to-anti-semitism/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpoaZkdnM3AIVY7HtCh3d5AtgEAMYASAAEgLz2vD_BwE

PECS it is clear that you don't regard antisemitism as a serious situation in the Labour Party mainly I have gathered with the Momentum group (a party within a party), who Corbyn is attempting to keep onside, because they are his activist ideologist working within a narrow spectrum of rational analysis.
Alastair Thomas writes:

It is not a new problem either. Hannah Arendt, the political philosopher who fled Germany in 1933, wrote that in 19th–century Berlin a Jew could only be accepted into wider society if he rejected his own people’s values and beliefs. He ‘had to stand out — as an individual who could be congratulated on being an exception — from “the Jew” and thus from the people as a whole’.
Strange as it seems, I find the same attitude prevalent in the left today. Jews are expected to apologise for Israel’s wrong-doings, oppose any right to a homeland and condemn the capitalists who rose from Jewish communities. If you do this, then you get to be a ‘good Jew’. But this idea of the ‘good Jew’ is very dangerous. It legitimises and excuses general anti-Semitism. Only a ‘good Jew’ is deserving of protection against hate speech; the rest of us bad Jews can go hang

Corbyn is often described as a nice guy, and I’m sure he is in person. But it’s no coincidence that the anti-Semitism epidemic within Labour really kicked off when he became leader. He appealed to the young, and it’s the young these days who refuse to see Jews as an authentic minority. For them, Zionism is now a synonym for white supremacy, neoliberalism and western colonialism. As the years pass, the historical association changed. So now, for my generation, Jews are not oppressed. They are the oppressors.
Part of the problem is that millennials — especially millennial socialists — find self-reflection very hard. We tweet and post constantly in response to our emotions.

It’s almost painful for net-natives to pause for thought before doing so. It’s this inability to reflect that allows my Corbynite friends to ignore and even defend the most egregious of sins committed in the name of socialism. At university, I met a young Corbynite who wanted to rename the Socialist Society ‘-Jezbollah’. It never crossed his mind that this was hugely offensive.
Why would it? St Jeremy attends rallies that include Hezbollah flags and offers words of solidarity to anti-Semitic conspiracy theorists. This his fans accept as reasonable behaviour^^Nice guy or not, he has turned terrorists into freedom fighters in the eyes of the young and hate preachers into outspoken activists.

Corbyn’s apology spoke of the ‘pockets’ where anti-Semitism exists — but the problem is the party as a whole. Time and time again, Jewish Labour members are threatened and abused at local meetings, conferences or online, while the ‘anti-racists’ turn away in wilful ignorance. To them, Jews are simply not a minority worth caring about As Jewish protestors demonstrate in Parliament Square to declare ‘enough is enough’, it is likely that young Corbynites will continue to ask ‘So what?’

This is the danger, that being antisemitic in the Labour Party becomes acceptable. Those who don't yield to being apologists for being either Jews or supporters of Israel will be excluded as we are already seeing, hence this thread.

You also say PECS that you are something of an Historian when it comes to the Middle East if that is so then you will know that whilst we talk of Palestine, the Hezbollah and Hamas, the PLO, PLA, just some of many Jihadi groups, who fight not only in Palestine, Lebanon but in Syria, in fact anywhere there is a Muslim Jihad. The stated intention of these groups as far as Israel is concerned is to destroy Israel.
These are not small disorganised pockets of terrorist, they are hugh well armed, well trained, with religious direction and ideology army's, with a well trained secret service. As an Historian with an interest in the Middle East you will know this.

Setting aside the owner ship of land, which is what this is about, in simple terms, the religious belief that the goes back to both the Muslim and the Jewish ancestry as written in the Holy Bible and the Holy Quran help us better understand the intensity on both sides:

. The Land of Canaan or Eretz Yisrael (Land of Israel) was, according to the Hebrew Bible, promised by God to the Children of Israel. This is also mentioned in the Qur'an.[11] In his 1896 manifesto, The Jewish State, Theodor Herzl repeatedly refers to the Biblical Promised Land concept.[12] Likud is currently the most prominent Israeli political party to include the Biblical claim to the Land of Israel in its platform.[13]
Muslims also claim rights to that land in accordance with the Quran.[14] Contrary to the Jewish claim that this land was promised only to the descendants of Abraham's grandson Jacob (Yisrael),[15] they argue that the Land of Canaan was promised to what they consider the elder son of Abraham, Ishmael, from whom Arabs claim descent.[14][16] Additionally, Muslims also revere many sites holy for Biblical Israelites, such as the Cave of the Patriarchs and the Temple Mount. In the past 1,400 years, Muslims have constructed Islamic landmarks on these ancient Israelite sites, such as the Dome of the Rock and the Al-Aqsa Mosque on the Temple Mount, the holiest site in Judaism. This has brought the two groups into conflict over the rightful possession of Jerusalem. Muslim teaching is that Muhammad passed through Jerusalem on his first journey to heaven. Hamas, which governs the Gaza Strip, claims that all of the land of Palestine (the current Israeli and Palestinian territories) is an Islamic waqf that must be governed by Muslims.[17]
Christian Zionists often support the State of Israel because of the ancestral right of the Jews to the Holy Land, as suggested, for instance, by the apostle Paul in his letter to the Romans, chapter 11, in the Bible. Christian Zionism teaches that the return of Jews in Israel is a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Christ.[18][19]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab–Israeli_conflict

An incredibly complex set of embedded beliefs on both sides, that involves land. It is ancient, hard to understand in modern times, yet deeply embedded in both the Muslim Arab and Jewish psychi. Add to that, hatred of the non believer by extremist Muslim groups, such as Hamas, Hezbollah, the PLO and PLA along with other Muslim Country's such as Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and the control that those religious beliefs have over them, it is a perfect storm. Far from being the major power in the Middle East, Israel is isolated and under constant attack. The situation is complex beyond our comprehension, keeping that in mind before targeting and blaming, "othering" the Israeli's, Jews and other who support Israel would be good. Those Labour Party members who see the Middle East as it really is, rather than as a pet project for Western Political activists such as JC et al need support to speak out, without being persecuted by the Corbyn Labour Party.

Leaving aside my dislike and mistrust of Corbyn, will the country vote for an activist PM , he was out on a demo march just a few weeks ago, a leader should speak out in the house and in interviews not by demonstrating. A PM needs to be more a diplomate not an activist .

Why did it take two years following Dame Shami’s report for the momentum chap who abused her that day in front of Corbyn and on live tv before any action was taken.

Good post POGS

2 years on and we are still talking about the same story.

If there was no hint of a problem problem why did Labour initiate the Jan Royal Inquiry?

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/baroness-royall-oxford-university-labour-club-anti-semitism-jeremy-corbyn-anti-zionism_uk_573b4e88e4b0328a838b83ed

Then came the Shami Chakrobati Report and her ' peerage ' row.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36672022

What is evident is from the time Corbyn became Labour Leader his political history has obviously been brought to the fore. He can no longer be the so called independent back bencher who voted against his own government numerous times , the EU being a good example. For decades Corbyn had been quite open about his views and connections with certain Irish connections, Iran , Hamas etc. etc. yet now there seems to be a desire to dumb down his past. a denial by some of events reported factually never even took place , Why?

Over time there have been so many reports of anti-semetic behaviour from both within and outside of the Labour Party Membership but certainly those who are Corbyn allies appear to get their fair share of attention.

The story behind Peter Willsman is just a follow on from so many others. It obviously does not concern Corbyn supporters that Willsman is on Labours NEC, nor the fact that Corbyn was present at the time of his rant if I am not mistaken , however it all ties in with so many other stories . It will no doubt bode well for Willsman in time to come as he will have ' been on a journey' and will be promoted in a couple of years as that's what appears to happen these days, take the case of Labour MP Naz Shah as an example.

When Labour MP's and Councillors alike have for so long raised the issues / made accusations of anti - semitism in the Labour Party I fail to see how the right wing /the media and lord knows who will be the next excuse, at the last count I think it's Mossad, are somehow using propaganda.

' Sticking your fingers in your ears' and ' having your head in the sand ' have become go to terms of late on GN on another topic but I think it applies to those who don't even agree with the those in the Labour Party , including Corbyn himself and John McDonnell that there is a problem that needs addressing.

McDonnell said :-

The Labour Party has failed to get to grips with antisemitism among some of its members and vowed to “get this sorted out.

McDonnells usual response to anybody who points out his failings is ' I was only joking '. Maybe he is over this too , time will tell.

Iam I have been saying for ages he is a weak leader, even his questions at PMQ are written and rehearse. He is loyal to his friends of long standing but what a bunch . I am constantly being accused of hating him, not true, I fear what he is doing to the party and like a parrot I keep repeating , it is the voters across the country who will elect the next government not the party membership alone. I telephone campaign for the referendum in Wales and England I campaigned for the welsh government, I listen to voters as I have done for every election for years. Votes have to come from middle England not just the North of England and South Wales

Pls excuse typos..using phone keypad

Iam64 I did vote for JC, I think he is fundamentally a good man and is not anti-semetic. I too am disappointed at his low profile leadership style and his EU stance. I think he did attempt to address the problems of racism in his party but the media, and possibly other opposition within LP, have chosen not to focus on that. I have said I do not want to be involved in a party that accepts any sort of racism.
I am afraid I think it is perfectly possible for there to be an orchestrated campaign to discredit left wingers in the LP and their known support of Palestine gave them the ideal platform to launch the stories of 'rampant' anti Semitism and at the same time equated support for Palestine equate , falsely, with anti-Semitism. It may well have been based on a real case but there are Jewish members of the party including MPs who do not accept the opinion of other Jewish members that there is a huge issue. There voice is valid too.
Annie which particular part of my post do you feel is unfair, and unfair to whom? Sorry I could not work out what you meant.

Unfair PECS, it is labour MP’s who have spoken out about anti semitism, the abuse hurled at Ruth Smeeth was broadcast live and is on uTube. Corbyn has brought this on the party not the media or the Tory party.

Not forgetting Corbyn is certaintly not vocal about Europe and surely 68 rabbis and the Board of Deputies of British Jews are ‘Jewish enough’ , you cannot keep claiming it is a plot to destabalize the opposition.

Corbyn certaintly lit the fireworks when appointed Shami to hold the enquiry and then shot her into the Lords.

And what has been exaggerated?

PECS I agree, we're living in dangerous and unsettling times. I find it difficult to believe JC is anti semitic though he hasn't been strong enough imo, in calling out those who are. I don't see him as a strong LP leader but accept many others do. I certainly would rather have JC in Downing Street than TM. My main worry about JC is that although LP member ship has grown, listening to voters on the doorstep, to radio phone ins, to people chatting in the local shops/pubs etc, doesn't lead me to believe they'll vote for the LP with him as Leader. We need him to be able to take the floating voters, the dare I say it, Blairites with him.
I accept that PECS and other posters here believe the constant focus on allegations of anti semitism in the LP is solely down to right wing press or to right wingers who want to destabilise the LP. Yes, we have a right wing press. Yes, not all Jewish people share the same belief systems. But - why can't JC and his key circle be more convincing ? I've just watched channel 4 news, with John Mann (predictably I know) arguing against JC and the LP difficulties with anti semitism. No one in the JC circle, including JC himself were prepared to be interviewed. It's a real mess and detracting from the very real problems caused by this governments policies. It's either Brexit or Anti Semitism dominating every news item - we should be calling this government to account. well, the opposition should be calling the government to account. I despair.

Blinko I have just seen you post where you decry the fact that Labour are are not focussing on being a good opposition. This is exactly my concern that I have been suggesting. That whilst there will be as much racism in LP as in other parties why now is there such a focus on the issue..but just on LP? The politics of the far right are trying to encourage nationalism of the worst sort and the European situation is playing into their hands too. By pushing stories exaggerated, true or false about anti Semitism in Labour it destabilises and distracts. They do not want a left Labour party to gain strength. It is what happens. They are also successfully dividing Jewish communities where debate is going on about who is really Jewish enough to speak about things! It is dangerous and unsettling times.