Labour Party and anti semitism

PECS - very good summary.
This topic has already been discussed at great length on Gransnet. eg
www.gransnet.com/forums/news_and_politics/1250299-Labour-gone-mad
It's upsetting that a subject which should be separate from politics should be used by the conservative biased media to further their aims.
Why did you have to dig it up again, Annie?

Iam64 JC also has a very strong record of being a good MP, of fighting racism, including anti-Semitism. He may not be the leader needed but I do not believe he is a bad person. It is clear that there is a centrist (Blairite) and left wing (Corbyn) battle going on in the LP. The right wing , outside the party, are capitalising on this and I really believe they have manipulated all the anti-semetic stuff. In addition the Tory party are delighted to have a media distraction from their own nightmares.

Equally lemon you no nothing about me either.. not sure what relevance that has to anything! I think difficult is a real understatement!

Anniebach you are not naïve & you know that the accusations of anti-Semitism would not have arisen if JC had not been open in his support for the humanitarian needs of the Palestinians and his wish to see the UN Human Rights recommendations adhered to in Gaza.

There is racism all over the place and one is not worse than another. All the accusations of 'Islamaphobia rife in the Tory party' is allowed to go unchallenged. Why I wonder is the media not gunning for that to be investigated?

How is it that the West Bank is comparatively peaceful and yet Gaza is a tinderbox?! A genuine question, not a dig.

I was answering trisher’s question ( up thread) PECS and not yours.
I have been to both Israel and Gaza in the past, and know that life can be difficult for the Palestinians.
You know nothing about me PECS so cannot make sweeping statements about how I view anybody.
However hard life can be for the Palestinian people, it does not compare to how the Nazis treated Jewish people, which was part of trisher’s original question.

PECS, this thread is anti semitism in the Labour Party not racism in Israel, distraction yet again.

Not sure what you mean Lemongrove Zionism is a political ideology and Anti-Semitism is hatred of Jews.

Lemongrove have you been to Gaza? You obviously do not see Palestinians as human beings equal to their Jewish neighbours. That can be perceived as racist too you know. Being Anti Palestinian is no less racist than being anti-Semetic or would you disagree?

JC couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery.

Zionism and anti-semitism are two different things.

Paddyann compared the number of Russians who died in WW2 with the number of victims who died in the death camps

*lemongrove' how do you know what JC does? Just because it is not on the front of the popular press does not mean it does not happen!

Their movements are restricted, but nobody is starving to death, and there are doctors and hospitals that Palestinian people can use, as you well know.It’s not the best situation for them agreed, but in no way is it comparable to how the nazis treated the Jewish people, and if you really think that, a trip to Belsen should be on your wish list.
Am sick of apologists for anti-semitism.

Seems the board of deputies of British Jews are all right wing activists mmmmmmmm

lemongrove nothing compares to the Holcaust.

However the siege of Gaza is causing many deaths as medical supplies and access to hospitals is limited and controlled by the current Israeli government. They also control food, water supply and electricity. Ripping up olive trees (great source of income for many Palestinians) and razing ancient villages and homes to make way for settlements that the international community has said are illegal is not a just way for the Israeli Government to behave. Just because it is not as bad as the Holocaust does not make it in any way acceptable. The recent law passed in Israel now opens the door to prioritise Jewish Israelis over Arab Israelis making them 2nd class citizens. Do you support that policy?

PECS, the shadow chancellor swore at and disparaged fellow MP’s on a stage in the O2 which was televised

Naz Shah has a bit of a history of saying anti -semitic things.
It doesn’t matter what JC ‘says clearly’ as he never follows up with any actions.
It doesn’t need ‘trolls’ or fake news to know that the LP has a big problem with anti-semitism.

People in Gaza are actually being held very much as Jews were held in ghettos lemongrove (oops I've just been anti-semitic). Their movement is restricted, they are denied utilities and medical help and many are starving. You don't see any similarities, others do see them, but they are unable to say so. A new definition was needed. And discussing the issues without the throwing about the term anti-semite would have been desirable. Name calling never helps.

Anniebach you strongly dislike JC. The two people concerned have broken parliamentary codes and LP expectations. They are being disciplined not for what they think but by the way they behaved. Swearing at and disparaging people in public especially in the HoC is not a professional way to behave.

The LP has adopted the IHRA statement.

The guidelines to support it were reviewed by the House of Commons Home Affairs Select Committee in 2016 and recommendations made to clarify the guidelines to:

'ensure freedom of speech is maintained in the context of discourse about Israel & Palestine. without allowing antisemitism to permeate the debate'

They recommended the definition should include the following statements

' It is not anti Semetic to criticise the Government of Israel, without additional evidence to suggest anti Semitism' and

' It is not anti-semetic to hold the Israeli Government to the same standards as other liberal democracies, or to take a particular interest in the Israeli Government's policies or actions, without additional evidence to suggest anti-semetic intent'

I rather think this is what the LP is proposing ( it has not yet been agreed!!) to put to to the Exec to discuss.

The person who drafted the original statement himself said it was a document for discussion.

It is my opinion that the focus on anti Semitism , which after recent independent polls, including amongst Jewish community, was not found to have increased (not saying we should not fight to reduce) is part of a centrist/right wing campaign to oust JC.

JC has stated clearly that he is opposed to anti-Semitism and any member found to be using anti-Semetic language or behaving in any way that is anti-Semetic would have membership removed. They are not welcome in the LP. Naz Shah was suspended for posting a cartoon map. The cartoon was also on the website of a major Jewish scholar ( Norman Finkelstein) who saw it within the context it was intended and found it amusing. He is horrified that Naz Shah, a successful Muslim woman, has been scapegoated and says it will not help reduce anti-Semitism but increase it. He sees it as a worrying symptom of the far right stirring up anti-Semitism. It is easy for trolls to manipulate 'fake news' for their own ends and to gain mainstream support.

trisher, Corbyn is the leader of the party, no pot shots just the truth, you defence of this man is so weak.

I assume any thread on the Tory party will have no mention of their leader ?

trisher....if only the LP were dealing with the matter!
That’s the problem with having a weak leader, Corbyn isn’t dealing with any problem, nor is anyone else.
Rather than deal with it, they prefer to redefine things.
As to your question, of course the treatment of the Palestinian people is not the same as how the nazis treated Jews in Germany, unless they are gassing them wholesale in huge concentration camps, torturing them, conducting medical experiments on them and starving them.

Annie why start a thread about anti-semitism in the Labour party when all you really want to do is take pot shots at Corbyn? Perhaps you could move on and discuss things a little more objectively. Or is that asking the impossible?

And Shami was brought in to investigate the allegations of anti semitism, she said there was just a occasionally a toxic atmosphere, then trotted of to the Lords . Corbyn told the truth when he said she was “an ideal appointment to the Lords” a case of you pat my back I’ll pat yours

Do you not understand that many actually find the definition being currently used as unacceptable Iam64? If you read the thread no one has yet answered my question would you deny the right of a Palestinian to compare the treatment of his (or her) people with the treatment of the Jews by the Nazis? because this definition does. Personally I think free speech is important and no regulation or definition should seek to limit it. There have been many genocides and many wholesale slaughters of many races in history and never has there been a restriction on comparing them with others.
And blaming Jeremy Corbyn for this is in fact a complete distraction. This was an NEC decision and should be respected as such.
The problem is that such restrictions tend to back fire and the result is a belief that there are hidden forces at work and from these roots springs anti-semitism. It isn't acceptable but it is understandable and actually dealing with the problem as the LP have is better than sweeping the whole thing under the carpet and pretending everything is wonderful. There is a real problem with the definition, there is a real problem with what is happening in Palestine and problems ignored don't go away they fester and breed.
There was a huge outcry about Trump's proposed wall but the Israeli West Bank Barrier was built with little protest, it was condemned by the UN, but it remains.

The USSR state did not round people up, transport them in appalling conditions then systematically murder them by diabolical methods simply because they were Jews paddyann. I agree Stalin did some terrible things but the annihilation of the Jews was just that, the oldest person down to the smallest baby, only total extinction would do! Of course you can criticise the Israeli government in the exactly the same way as any other government without being anti semitic, but not its people any more than Syria, North Korea China, unpleasant governments, but not unpleasant people, unless of course you're Jewish!!