Boris Johnson's Latest 'Gaff'

PECS I agree with Joelsnan, hate is an extreme word that has no place in anything I have read thus far on this thread.

Whilst you rightly draw attention to power groups, since they do exist. You fail to realise though that this is not about power it's about fear, fairness and freedom.

On any Street as other posters have so well described and someone even perceptively also brought another aspect to the discussion that some who wear the veil are making a 'provocative statement", others are following the 'rule's' of the family, or their religious belief. However we have also learned from the same poster, that Islam only require's 'modest dress", so wearing the full black Burka and face veil is a matter of choice, not religion.

So the question, the big question, how much are those who wear the full face cover prepared to compromise? The full face cover is an intimidating piece of clothing to others, just as another poster said, her son cannot go into a Bank with his motorbike helmet on, another poster on the wearing of a balaclava. What would happen should any one of us wear a Balaclava to go to our Supermarket...do you really think we would be allowed in? How many yards down the High Street would any of us get wearing a Balaclava before the Men in Blue and probably armed 'felt our collar's". So fairness too is an issue, especially when the veil is of choice not of religious requirement.

Whilst we all should feel free to wear what we want to, there are certain dress code's Law's, conventions and courtesies that most of us conform to. As mentioned previously, Motorbike Helmets in restricted area's, full face covering (Balaclava) in normal daily life, mask's to go to M&S all either restricted, illegal or discourteous to other's, not to mention scary and sinister looking, bringing trepidation and caution out in others.

You deftly move from the topic into "Brexit", "fascism", "right wing extemism", "UKippers" and accuse Boris Johnson of making his now famous, and for some infamous statement about the fully covered Burka'd women to gain support from the above named groups to get him into power. Now Machiavelli would have given you at least ten out of ten for that bit of lateral thinking and political connectivity.
You failed however to mention the far left, Trotskyist, Momentum (who I have yet to put into their correct slot) so l will use Anarchist.

The interesting slant on this is how quickly the comparison to antisemitism in the Labour party was made and how quickly the people in his own Party were pressured into an investigation. The Police are being heckled into "looking at the allegations".

What is happening to this Country? Political correctness gone mad. No one can laugh at themselves anymore, and it' seems that is culturally catching since it seems neither can the Burka'd women or their communities. Offence is seen not just around every corner, but people seeking out any hint of offence. Day6 pointed out that it is "the white middle class" who are "terrified" of speaking out to agree that criticism of some groups IS valid!".
She also says rightly in my view that :
"It's so very right-on not to be offended and if you are, well don't voice those opinions whatever you do, because - OMG, you'll be criticised for being white, middle class and literate! (Reading the Daily Mail is a very tired and over used slur.)"
The groups who are intimidated into silence are not always where you are looking PECS. Nor are they always from the cultures/religious groups that you would be readily looking to support. They are the silent majority afraid to speak out.

If this carry's on and there is no compromise, no understanding of how these very scary dress codes worn by some islamic women is perceived by others, then inevitably they will themselves bring about a ban, which would be sad, since the decision to integrate or not, to choose or not to scare or even offend others, by wearing the Burka and veil is an individual decision, and hopefully with education and awareness of how other's see it, things might change slowly. Particularly as we are now aware that Islam does not insist on the wearing of the full cover and veil, merely modest dress.
Consider the impact of that voluntary courtesy of removing the veil, it would be admired and respected greatly.

Hate is a very emotive word and stirs up ill feeling. A word that I am pretty sure you have chosen well for impact and reaction. This thread is not indicating hatred of any sort in my view.

I put it to you PECS, for consideration that you are apportioning accountability for action to the wrong people. You seem to think that it is the 'other's' the ones who don't wear the Burka and veil who should change their attitudes. Would you ever consider that the responsibility for change might rest with those women who wear the Burka and veil, that a change in their attitudes could lead to greater integration, moderation and understanding that can only come from the Burka wearing population. Not the rest of the population, unless you want us all to start wearing the Burka and veil.

I agree Lindiloo - snowflakes offended again! ?? This is still a western country - they are very lucky that this form of dressing is not banned! If westerners go to Arab countries we have to abide by their dress code or else!

People as diverse as Rowan Atkinson and a Muslim imam are speaking out in support of what Boris said.

Very good post Allygran1

The argument about women being pressured by culture, men,relatives etc to dress in a particular way is quite amusing and misplaced. Why do so many white young women feel pressured to stick on false eyelashes in the morning, to have plastic surgery to their breasts and even their labia and to move every single hair from their body, from the eyes down. And then go out wearing shorts that don't even cover their buttocks. No pressure. The idea just pops, simultaneously, into their heads!

People as diverse as Rowan Atkinson and a Muslim imam are speaking out in support of what Boris said

The letterbox/bank robber analogy, Baggs?
And does the Pope think nuns look like penguins?
Well, well, well
.

I have just read both reports Baggs and they both speak perfect sense . There is no way BJ should apologise as he has said or done nothing wrong .

Allygran if I may quote
and accuse Boris Johnson of making his now famous, and for some infamous statement about the fully covered Burka'd women to gain support from the above named groups to get him into power. Now Machiavelli would have given you at least ten out of ten for that bit of lateral thinking and political connectivity

When it comes to Machiavellian, Johnson is a past master. You only have to look at his stance on Brexit, his very clear ambition of leadership of the Conservative party by whichever means he can.
So yes, got it in one!

Burkas and Niqabs are horrible garments that serve no purpose whatsoever other than to draw attention to the wearer . I can bet we will start seeing more and more of them on our streets though . There’s certainly more than there ever was in my town.

MawBroon take Boris out of the situation, should we be discussing the proliferation of women with veiled faces in public? I think we should for all the reasons raised by others. It is intimidating and not tolerated if done by men. In an open society we should at least be able to see the faces of people we are attempting to communicate with.

I am more than happy to talk about that Jane10 but that was NOT what this thread purported to be about.
Discuss the principle by all means but insulting those who wear the veil etc is not the way to do it and Johnson knows that so why did he do it?
It is not the first time he has said the wrong thing, but I question that it is just a gaffe or banter.
In November 2017 he apologised, admitting that his remarks about Nazanin Zaghari-Ratliff were unhelpful and the poor woman’s prison sentence in Iran was extended.
Is it just arrogance then?

MawBroon this thread, like so many others on GN has moved beyond the OP. BJ's much misquoted article opened up an important topic for discussion.

Whilst taking a coffee break in the city and sitting in a window seat (I love to people watch), my attention was drawn to a ‘person’ walking past wearing the burka. Without a doubt this ‘person’ was a man. Stature, walk, hands and feet (in sandals). Burkas do not have a place in the public domain for many valid reasons.

The first country to ban the wearing and making of burkas was 99% Muslim Morocco in 2016.
In Islam's holiest place the Ka'aba in Mecca facial covering is strictly forbidden. Why is it OK here?

And my opinions about Johnson’s choice of words are unchanged. I would be equally offended by comparisons of nuns with penguins.
If I choose not to engage in a discussion with those who think it’s “all a bit of a laugh”, “justified”,”off the cuff banter”, “PC gone mad “ or the “Holier than thous having a field day” so be it.
The letterbox/bank robber analogy is certainly NOT what “most people” are thinking.

For me it's not the discussion of burka's that is the issue it's the language Boris used to describe these women who wear them. He obviously did it in order to make the article he wrote front page news and cause a furore. Without colourful language it would have probably passed by with very little comment. Unfortunately, although he has opened up discussion which is a good thing, he has also opened up the potential for these women to be abused by every vile person who will now see them as fair game. I agree with everything ally and others have said, but I don't agree with name calling, apart from being rude and demeaning, it can be dangerous and lead to horrible unforeseen consequences.

Niggly
When I used to run crying to my mum saying that someone had called me something I didnt like, she used to say: Sticks and stones may break my bones, but calling will not hurt me.
Are you aware of this saying?

“Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me”

Does anybody really believe that?
Internet bullying -name calling
Racism -name calling
Religious intolerance -name calling
Apart from which name calling is all too often the weapon of choice of the bully and the coward

Allygran you sound like Perry Mason! 'I put it to you PECS...'

Johnson met the known white supremacist, Steve Bannon, just a week before he made his statement about the few 100 women who wear either a niqab or burka in UK. These women pose no real threat to anyone. It was quite a deliberate attempt to stir up /appeal to the right wing. I do not think it is a big step to move to talk about Brexit etc. It is all part of the same thing: growing xenophobia, isolationism and unsettling the citizens of the UK in a divide and rule strategy. It is exactly how Trump got to be president.

As I stated clearly I do not particularly like women to wear the niqab or burka. My argument is not about the wearing of a particular item of clothing.

It is about the use of a tiny minority to make a huge political 'race' statement and to appeal to those who do hate Muslims/ are fearful of people who appear different and those who want UK to only be for white middle class people. I believe it will embolden people to act on that hate.

I have already said that I don't think it is either anti-Islamic or racist to condemn the burkha. Many people in many Islamic countries dislike it and consider it unnecessary. What is interesting that once again a man thinks he can say what women should wear. If women are wearing the burkha by choice why should he have the right to condemn them? Any more than he should have the right to criticise a young women in a skimpy revealing outfit. Women don't do it about men, although in BJs case we might all advise him invest in some new better fitting suits.

And a decent hair cut!!
Of course I'm aware of that saying J.n! I don't actually agree with it! Words can be very hurtful as many a person on social media will tell you, sometimes leading to tragic consequences. So, 'words can never hurt you' Well, actually they can! in more ways than one.

PECS
Religion in not a race.
Just about everyone criticises others dress, obviously not in a newspaper, i would imagine even you have criticised your husband, children (if you have/had) them) for wearing clothes that you didnt like. Have you never walked around a shopping mall and raised an eyebrow, or whispered to a friend 'did you see that!' Actually women are the worst critics of male attire.
We are losing our precious freedom of speech and our ability to laugh at ourselves if we allow issues like these to be blown out of context.
You say we should wear what we want no matter how provocative it may be and yet you would not allow people to say what they want.
It is not a man/woman thing it is societal.

PECS
It is about the use of a tiny minority to make a huge political 'race' statement and to appeal to those who do hate Muslims/ are fearful of people who appear different and those who want UK to only be for white middle class people. I believe it will embolden people to act on that hate.

Can you please explain this statement, especially in the context that the veil is banned in many muslim countries and especially in the most holiest place in Islam, the Kabba in Mecca Saudi Arabia where Muslims perform their Haj pilgrimage.

By launching this he has encouraged those who think it is ok - or even funny - to shout abuse at women and girls in any kind Muslim dress, to spit at them, or to try to pull off their head coverings. I remember a Muslim colleague telling me years ago that she had "had a terrible time" after the attack on the Twin Towers. Johnson is pandering to the extreme right - and courting their support. Remember what happened to Jo Cox - an MP assassinated by a right wing terrorist for her inclusive values. A racist man, wound up by what he has read on the Internet, targeting a woman. Johnson is indeed "unfit for public office"

We are losing our precious freedom of speech and our ability to laugh at ourselves if we allow issues like these to be blown out of contexr

That is a very valid point. What BJ said was not technically racist. And don’t you think some people, of all races, political persuasions, etc are just too sensitive these days?

Yes, I take your point JessM but we can’t always pander to the lowest common denominator.