Corbyn / BBC declare social class of employees?

Anniebach

I don't that is Elegrans style but it is mine.

PECS/POGS scenario?

No, that was POGS, Anniebach.

Perhaps there should be a question on the application form on the lines of "Do you (or your family, for young interns) know any employee of this organisation socially?" And in the notes "It should be noted that canvassing for preference in this appointment is not permitted, and could result in your application being refused" Not that they believe they are actually "canvassing for preference" - Daddy just happened to mention on the golf course that his daughter was considering the media as a career and XXXX said "Tell her to apply for an internship." But how do you stop Daddy mentioning his daughter to his golfing partner? Give all interns reasonable pay that alllows those without private means to get experience too.

So sorry Elegran and POGS, quite worrying, I knew it was you POGS but typed your name Elegran. duh

The whole business of internships is very discriminatory.

How many ordinary young people can afford to live and work in London without being paid?

Only those supported by the bank of Mum and Dad.

Most parents, even those with reasonable incomes find that supporting their children through university drains their resources. With the amount needed per year reckoned to be £22000 and student loans only totalling a possible £17000 outside London and £20000 in London there is a significant amount needed to fill the gap.Of course students can work but those on difficult courses(like medicine) don't have the time. I wonder if we will see a fall in the numbers of poorer children doing these courses?
And supporting someone through an internship would really break the bank,

There are quite a few presenters who started their careers in local Beeb studios

If class is seen as relating to all sorts of other issues like hobbies, how money is spent, "taste", etc, etc, I feel, as others do, that these elements vary so much from person to person that there is little value in trying to analyse them. However, my understanding is that the principal components establishing "class" are education, employment and income. The majority of people's income is derived from the job they do. In turn, the jobs that people do are very much dependent on their education - and one of the determinants of a good education is income - so these factors are inter-dependent.

There may be individual cases of plumbers (such as the plumber who runs Pimlico Plumbers and is now a millionaire) and other trades people being very comfortably off and a small minority being able to afford private schooling in the top prep and public schools. However, a 2010 table of the highest earning jobs shows this:

1. Head of major organisation
2. Medical practitioner
3. Aircraft pilot
4. Senior national government officer
5. Dentist
6. Business manager/Chartered Secretary
7. Senior Police Officer
8. Energy manager
9. Business/financial broker
10. Senior local government officer

The lowest paid workers are:

1. Waiting staff
2. Bar staff
3. Elementary sales assistants
4. Kitchen/catering
5. Hairdresser
6. Cashier/checkout worker
7. theme park attendant
8. launderer/dry cleaner
9. fishmonger/poultry dresser
10. Shelf filler

The Guardian reported in 2013:

"Inter-generational changes in class are still small. In 2010, the link between individual and parental earnings was found to be the strongest in the UK than any other OECD country. Many argue that the British educational system can reproduce and reinforce these trends. A 2012 report from the OECD found that British schools were more socially segregated than in any other developed country."

I think this is the crux of the matter and one of the reasons why the notion of social mobility is, in the main, an illusory one. In fact, I believe research shows that there is a reversal in even the small amount of social mobility that there was.

75% of our judges, around 50-59% of our cabinet, 50% of our diplomats, 47% of our newspaper columnist, 33% of our BBC executives, etc. etc. etc. have been to Oxbridge (and are overwhelmingly more likely to have received a private education). I believe we need to start thinking about how other progressive countries have been more successful in enabling women, and people from all social, economic and ethnic backgrounds to be more fairly represented at higher levels of office.

Trisher, I said exactly what you say I didn't say, what I said was that that had nothing to do with class but everything to do with money, those who can afford private schools etc can afford to support an intern but 90% of those in what are defined as 'middle class' jobs can neither afford private education, nor to subsidise their children as interns.

The problem with internships is not particularly nepotism. DD did do six weeks work experience with a firm in the media, which she got just by writing and asking and following that was then offered several internships. All this despite neither of us having any media contacts at all, nor does DH play golf or any other 'useful' sport.

The problem is the lack of pay that limits such jobs to those who have access to private means of support, It is money that pulls the strings, not class.

I would limit unpaid internships to six weeks only, with no repeat in the same or an associated company within a year and beyond that all trainees should be paid the rate for the job, which would be a minimum of the living wage.

Yes, those working in the media hold more power but what they are doing qualitatively is no different to that done by builders, plumbers, electricians and multitudinous tradesmen who will offer job to a mates son or daughter who wants to get into their trade. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

I believe the issue of social mobility and a move towards more proportionate representation of the population at higher levels of office is a pressing one which needs to be addressed.

I realise that several people do not feel this is an issue that needs addressing. That's fine - but I object to the implication that I, and others who have a similar view to me, are "bigots". Argue your case; don't make personal attacks.

It takes more than quotas and edicts from on high to cause change. Social mobility is achieved largely by education - if you don't have the training and qualifications for a position, then in a time of less than full employment and too many people chasing too few jobs, more people will be working below their potential than above it unless they have the confidence and self-presentation skills to make themselves stand out from other candidates. Public schools give just such confidence, whatever the calibre of the pupils they start out with. The challenge to non-public schooling is to match that confidence.

Spending on education at all levels and ages is investment in the future of the whole community. Any government that cannot understand that needs to go on a training course itself to learn the basic links. Perhaps those basics should be an A-level subject in their own right, along with a course on why spending on the nation's health is also vital?

So when a shelf filler is paid the same as a doctor all will be well.

M0nica I have no idea how old your DD is but I would suspect she is not a recent graduate seeking work in the media. In the past entry to the media was easier, but things change.
It isn't the quality or the value of the work that I am interested in, it is the influence that people working in the media exercise.

What influence Trisher? Over what/whom?

It would be a lot better is a shelf filler was paid a decent wage without the taxpayer having to subsidise their earnings.
Every job is important, without food being on the shelves, a doctor would have to spend more time shopping and less time doctoring.

Yes Ilovecheese, I do know that . What has it to do with social class of employees ?

It is an illusion that it was ever easy to get into the media. It took DD three years to get a place at drama school and another three years after she graduated to get a job in the media. It is still just as difficult - and she went in as a techie, not a creative.

Of course we do not want any small group influencing how people think, but in this multi-media international world as we know from ISIS recruits and the extreme right wing in the United States, if people do not like what they are hearing they tune into something else that appeals to them, whether execution videos or pseudo Nazi fascists groups.

And so many people do not interact with any newsmedia at all unless it is celebrities.

Did anyone say it was easy? I think the words were it was easier than it is now.

And my point is that it was no easier then than now.'
Saying, 'Oh it was easier in the past' when someone, with some inside knowledge suggests something you do not agree with is wrong is just a cop-out.

And using one person's experiences to draw conclusions about the whole spectrum of media is bad logic. You have said yourself that internships are only for the very affluent.

anniebach Did I suggest that a shelf filler should be paid the same as a doctor? No. Someone - I think it was Monica - said that the notion of class is a load of rubbish because what determines people's ability to get on in life is primarily their income.

I was trying to point out that education, employment and income are inextricably linked. In the main, the highest earners are highly educated people. The statistics already show that a disproportionate number of high earners in senior positions, in relation to the population as a whole, have been privately educated. Research has also shown that particularly in the UK one of the main determinants of the acquisition of senior posts/high earnings is the income level of a person's parents.

Other countries seem to have been more successful in creating conditions whereby, despite different wealth levels, there is far more social mobility. I am not quite sure how they do this but I believe the issue needs investigating and addressing if we are to inspire and motivate people from all walks of life to contribute to society to the very best of their ability. At the moment, I believe there are many talented people who, given the right circumstances, could equal or even exceed the commitment and performance of those who currently glide, almost as if by right, into positions of power and influence.

Listened to a comedy programme last night, a sketch , the unfairness of the Olympic Games where just because a few could run the fastest many didn’t have a chance to have a gold medal so it should be open to all and everyone who took part receives a gold medal ?

Which sounds alarmingly like the policy of Sports Day at some schools!

It does Jalima , a child loses a race and is damaged for life.

It's an interesting discussion to read but I'm struggling to understand what relevance your comment at 8.25 today has to it, Ab.

Nobody's saying that all should have prizes. They're just asking for a level playing field.