Should the electorate have the final say on Brexit?

Thank you for taking the time to write that, Joelsnan

MaizieD
I was an enthusiastic opponent of the common market and saw it as a good thing for the UK. After a while i saw repirts in my lical newspaper of our large engineering companys relicating their manufacturing and i became concerned about the youth and the lack of home based skilled workers. Both of our main engineering employers outsourced and with them went hundreds if apprenticeships in mechanical and electrical engineering, gear cutting etc., and these were never replaced. We went through a period where school leavers went on worthless six month work placements which were supposed to provide them with work but few did.
I watched as our youth were villified and deemed feckless this so that profit driven companys could bring in cheap trained workers from the EU. They didnt have to spend money training them and they could pay them minimum wage. Indeed most are good workers.
I watched as Germany has grown in power and is achieving by steakth what it couldnt do by war. I watched as countries such as Germany exploit the poorer countries providing them with grants to improve their infrastructure, roads etc. So the can get their cheaply produced goods out whilst not improving the lives of those who live there.
I watch as nationalism is rising throughout Europe, though as UK is experiencing, leaving a disfuctional organisation is a frightening prospect akin to trying to leave the Soviet union.
As the EU big boys strive for a federal state it is evident that this is a step too far. The Eastern Bloc is very nationalustic and their cultures are still strongly religion based. Even Sweden is getting wary of the dictatorial stance coming from the 'big boys' especially with regard to free movement and immigration. In just about every country within the EU there is a simmering frustration at ground level.
It is being muted by some within the EU that it has become too big and that it may be vetter reconfiguring as smaller looser trading alliances where polotical issues are devolved back to governments but with common agreements in place.
Had the union remained as a teading alliance i would still be singing its praises, However, as i have seen the demise of our manufacturing infrastrucure, the quality of jobs available to our youth being zero or gig economy non jobs. Our run down areas beautified with EU funds which is actually UK money sent to EU, an admin charge skimmed off then sent back with a big blue plaque to say its EU money.
The Erasmus project benefits a few, all students should benefit from overseas teavel. When i was at school in the 1960s we had an exchange program with a school in Lille, France.
For every scientist saying Brexit is bad, you can find ithers sayin gring it on as research and cooperation is global. The satellute thing. Most of the money and research is UK. Yet there are countries who have barely contributed who will genefit the most, whilst I am all for genevolence, i am not for taking the P.
I have friends who have relocated or who have holiday homes in Spain. Some have estabished themselves as citizens others not.
There are many more reasons why, but maybe that is enough for now (visitors just arrived).

Joelsnan, apart from the oft cited 'immediate hit to the economy' (which is happening but in slower motion) and the 'out break of WW3' (Boris's interpretation, not what was actually said) what other 'lies' were promulgated by the Remain campaigners?

I'm also genuinely interested in the sources of your long and intensive research into the EU which convinced you that leaving was the best option. Would you like to give us some examples?

Do we have any real statesmen/women who could effectively lead any successful government today. I only seem to have some respect for the shadow Chancellor, John McDonnel.
Trouble is our Parliament has become sloppy deferring most of the policy and law making to the ECJ. This is why many are worried about Brexit as it will mean they will actually have to govern in a meaningful way.

Here is a link to JRMs above farcical interview

www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-obrien-fact-checks-jacob-rees-moggs-claims/

specky4eyes
Previous point proven.
Final comment to you.

The PM may have taken on an impossible task, Nonnie but she immediately made it even more impossible by painting herself into a corner with all those 'red lines' and promising that the government would negotiate a glorious deal which would, in effect, give us all the advantages of being in the EU without actually being a member.

I feel that the electorate will now never accept "Boris the buffoon" as a Prime Minister. He has far too many farcical events in his background now which would all be brought up in an election campaign.

The other contender who fancies himself for leader Jacob Rees Mogg, yesterday had to have the basics of a trade deal explained to him on radio

He stated that there would be no shortages following a no deal Brexit as Britain control all imports to this country. He then had to have it explained to him that before you have imports organizations have to have a basic trade arrangement to be able to export it to Britain even under WTO rules.

Although thinking about it, perhaps he would make a good Tory leader as they make little sense or agreement on anything these days.

Speki I agree with what you say but not that you blame or PM. Yes, I think she should have known better than to put herself forward for the job but whoever was in her place would have the same impossible task. No PM can win in this situation, no deal will be good enough which is why Boris resigned, he knew he had promised the undeliverable. He is now waiting for the backlash and will step in to take over when it is too late to change anything and say he would have done a better job!

And your subsequent personal jibe is not childish Joelsnan??!! You're in a hole - best to stop digging.
Oh and do try to use a bit of punctuation - you might get more respect for your views that way.

MaizieD
The same should be said for the Remain campaign however those who comment on leave issues have more cogent issues to discuss rather than the constant attempts to discredit the outcome which at this stage of the process when Article 50 has been invoked and the leaving terms are to be finalised in October are pointless as are the constant personal jibes towards those who try to engage in intelligent conversation on this subject

And any consideration for the small businesses already having enormous problems over Brexit due to the leave leaders still having no real plan even with six months to go.

I note the studious ignoring of the antidemocratic and criminal aspects of the Leave campaign and campaigners.

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45428008
Not the Daily Mail

And the Daily Mail spouts again.

I know many learned types who feel very strongly that the EU is about to internally combust. There is public discontent in many member states.

If anything many more people are looking at negotiations, seeing discontent on the streets of Germany, Italy, Austria, Sweden, Hungary at al and wanting the Brexit process to speed up. I don't know any Leave voters who would change their minds but I know three Remain voters who would now vote Leave.

I also think it's extremely, incredibly arrogant of many Remainers to assume Leave voters didn't understand the complexity of leaving the EU so therefore their votes and feelings are somehow invalid.

Many Remainers are uninformed and rather clueless as to the workings of the EU too yet their vote was somehow worth more? I don't think so.

A second referendum can't and won't happen. Bring on Brexit. Let us move on.

Unless you are prepared to give a non biased view on the lies and criminal acts,

Well, that's an impossibility, isn't it, Joelsnan? Any thing which is found to be the detriment of the Leavers is characterised by them as being 'biased' because the the finders or reporters of the detrimental acts are claimed to be 'Remainers' and thus biased. It's like Catch 22.

'Vote Leave' and 'Beleave' found by the Electoral Commission to have broken electoral law and have been heavily fined and referred by the EC to the police. 'Not a fair finding' say the Leavers, 'the Electoral commission are all Remainers' (how do they know that? I ask myself).

The judges who found in favour of Gina Miller in the A50 case; 'Enemies of the People' bawled the rightwing Brexit driving supporting press. 'Remainers to a man (and woman)' they screamed, ' BIASED ' (what a disgusting thing to do that was; to accuse our judiciary of bias when the whole fabric of our legal system and constitution is based on the impartial Rule of Law)

Tory MPs who voted against the government in the passage of the Withdrawal Bill ' Saboteurs1 ' decided the RW press. For exercising their duty to consider the good of the country before the good of their party?

If I were a Leaver I would be cringing with embarrassment at these attacks on people doing their constitutional duty and ashamed at attempts to subvert our democracy by cheating. Also ashamed that the Britain which has always presented itself to the world as a bastion of fairness and honesty appears to be tolerating a 'use fair means or foul, it really doesn't matter so long as you win' mentality.

specky4eyes
Absolutely childish, personal jibes only serve to show the inadequacies of those posting them.
Maybe I should wear my glasses more often and change my tag to specky4eyes too.

Joelsnan "valud"? "enevirable"? "we will forged"? I rest my case!!
But yes, thank you so much for pointing out that I am entitled to my opinion - that is precisely why I'm voicing it on this forum.

MartaBeck
Unless you are prepared to give a non biased view on the lies and criminal acts, Which are proven on both sides isn't it time to put to bed this now boring diatribe. It gets the argument nowhere.

However, according to Jacob Rees Mogg, it may take fifty years for Britain to return to the same level of prosperity as we have now

I don't know how anyone at all can predict the future with any degree of certainty. We do not know what will happen to the world in six months' time, let alone 50 years.

Or even tomorrow in fact.
It is probably just as well that we do not know.

Joelsnan
Maybe Mervyn King gets his information from the Sun ?
Amazing really isn't it that a man who managed the Bank of England thinks the same as all us thickos.

Not many tend to agree with lemon and those who deny the leave campaign was based on lies and proven criminal acts.

They are so certain the land of honey is awaiting for us if Brexit goes ahead. I am satisfied that staying in the EU provides the right option to what is presently on offer under Brexit and Happy for a public vote on the subject. Goodnight all!

We are always being informed that the European Union is about to collapse. We have had the Euro, the Greece crisis, Spain, Italy to name just a few crises that have taken place in the last few years. However, the EU continues on resolving the above with its famous late-night meetings with all member states agreeing the outcomes in final statements.

TM has tried to break that unity with recent visits to France, Germany, Poland and the Czech Republic in an effort to gain support for Britains leave position. However, on each occasion, she has come away empty handed with no member State supporting Britains position on having three of the fundamental freedoms on leaving but not the free movement of labour.

That is a long way from the the David Davis statement following the signing of article 50 that "these negotiations (to obtain a trade deal) will be the easiest ever concluded".

However, according to Jacob Rees Mogg, it may take fifty years for Britain to return to the same level of prosperity as we have now. Further to that on this forum, we are informed that "Most Leavers know that just like a divorce it is rough to start with but soooo worth it in the end".

I do not know any real-life divorce that has taken fifty years to become amicable and beneficial, but that it would seem is what we are being asked to accept by leave supporters.

Thankfully an ever-growing number now see the leave proposals for what they are, economic suicide.

Joelsnan: ^ "... This before the enevirable collapse of the EU which will happen sooner or later...^

Just as likely to be the collapse of the UK.