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Northern Ireland and Brexit

(364 Posts)
MaizieD Sat 29-Sept-18 10:42:25

An Irishman tries yet again to explain the huge Brexit problem with NI. In response to yet another airy dismissal by Boris Johnson:

Start

Patrick Kielty @patrickielty
And please.... please don't tell me it's "our money" or that the UK government would have done it anyway because I can't be bothered to take you by the hand, lead you to a corner and explain simple things in words of one syllable

1. Northern Ireland is made up of a majority of Unionists (as in the Conservative and Unionist Party) and, believe it or not, a rather large minority of Nationalists (as in Irish Nationalists)

2. These Irish Nationalists don’t see themselves as British but rather inconveniently as Irish (who knew?)

3. For over 30 years we killed each other because of these differences which means Northern Ireland is nothing like Camden or Westminster.

4. The Good Friday Agreement ended that violence by the following devious magic - Unionists were guaranteed that Northern Ireland would be part of the UK until the majority voted otherwise.

The Irish was border was removed and the island linked so Nationalists could pretend they were already living in a United Ireland (yes, Tony Blair did slight of hand much better than you)

5. Some of these Nationalists then accepted being part of the UK as their day to day lives were essentially Irish.

6. This cunning plan was sold to us on the basis that we were all part of the EU therefore fixation on nationality was so last World War.

7. Implementing the Good Friday Agreement was torturous (think Brexit with actual bombs, not metaphorical suicide vests) but we finally made peace. Yet 20 years later NI remains a divided society.

8. Thanks to your glorious Brexit vision Northern Ireland will become more divided as some form of economic border checks will become part of daily lives.

9. If those checks take place between NI and Ireland, the Nationalists who were once happy being part of the UK will change their mind.

10. If they take place in the Irish Sea some Unionists will be livid. However they'll still support being part of the UK (the clue is in the Unionist bit)

11. Your Brexit lies have opened a Pandora’s box for Northern Ireland. It's one reason why the majority of people in NI voted to remain in the EU (almost as if they knew more about the fragile equilibrium of their politics than you)

12. Barely mentioned before Brexit, a border poll is now inevitable thanks to your monumental ignorance.

13. When that poll is eventually held the Nationalists who were once content being part of a Northern Ireland within the UK and EU will vote to leave the UK to feel as Irish and European as they did before Brexit.

14. The poll will be much closer thanks to your Brexit folly and could easily be lost by Unionists, breaking up the UK.

15. Any break up of the Union will be your fault (a tad inconvenient as a member of the Conservative and er, Unionist party)

16. The EU is not responsible for your blundering lack of foresight. Like most people in Northern Ireland they were happy with the status quo.

17. By the time the penny drops that you can’t preserve the Union you want without the one you don’t, it will be too late.

18. You will be remembered not as the Churchillian visionary you delude yourself to be but the ignoramus who triggered the break up of the UK.

19. If there’s any justice all this will come to pass when you're Prime Minister so you can finally swim in the constitutional sewage you've created (though we all know you’ll be in Nice with your trotters up)

20. Meantime, if you’re so concerned about keeping Northern Ireland totally aligned with the rest of the UK where’s your support for our same sex marriage and women’s right to choose? Your silence is deafening.

End

In a nutshell, so to speak grin

JessM Wed 17-Oct-18 18:35:35

The John Humphreys interview this morning was priceless. For once he shut up - and let the Irish Government minister talk. Especially after being told "You sound as if you are talking for Boris Johnson. He's not even in the cabinet!". The Brexiters were carried along on a Farage-Hot-air-fuelled wave of nastiness and lies. Unless we stay in a Customs Union there is going to be chaos at the ports, a shortage of essential medicines, food rotting in transit and probably blood flowing in Ireland. UK will be contravening terms of international law if they interfere with that border.

MawBroon Wed 17-Oct-18 18:46:21

^From the Irish Times^:

The family express concern about how Brexit might bring a return of the Troubles along the Border
Brexit is the thing that could break it again,” says Seamus
The family despair at the possibility of customs posts reappearing along what is now an invisible frontier should the politicians in London and Brussels fail to find a solution to avoid a hard border in the Brexit negotiations. They are fearful about how the re-emergency of customs posts might bring a return of the kind of violent acts that might devastate families in future like it did theirs 46 years ago
I don’t see how it is not going to happen because there is nobody coming up with any better ideas,” says Mary

While I am not disputing comments in the Irish Times, May we know who Seamus and Mary are? Which family is being referred to?
Are they like Brenda from Bristol, are they local businesspeople or politicians, do they live in NI or the Republic,, what are their politics and why should we necessarily take any more notice of them than anybody else?

jura2 Wed 17-Oct-18 19:07:29

They are human beings- quite simply, who have lived and suffered terribly during the Troubles, and don't want to go back to those times. Just like my relatives on the other side of the border.

Truly insensitive comments. A border is more than very likely to bring the violence back- can't you just see that and understand how ordinary humand beings feel about it.

Who cares what their politics are?

MaizieD Wed 17-Oct-18 19:10:51

Can you give a link to that article, MB?

Grandad1943 Wed 17-Oct-18 19:11:22

Jalima1108, with every respect, but it was you I believe who stated that Northern Ireland was "an insoluble problem."

I then asked the question "So, why did the leave leaders and those that supported Brexit not inform the electorate of that fact at the time of the referendum?".

You have responded to that question with the answer "I don't know the answer to that either."

Again with every respect, but I believe that the above demonstrates that many leave supporters did not understand the very core detriments of the argument they were voting for.

jura2 Wed 17-Oct-18 19:11:31

www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/what-if-brexit-brings-the-violence-back-1.3665559

MawBroon Wed 17-Oct-18 19:22:12

Who cares what their politics are?
It was not meant unkindly, but whether someone quoted is Sinn Fean or DUP or anything in between is exrremely relevant in any discussion of NI/Eire or the Troubles.

Jalima1108 Wed 17-Oct-18 19:24:15

Jalima1108, with every respect, but it was you I believe who stated that Northern Ireland was "an insoluble problem."
No, Grandad, I was answering varian:

varian Tue 16-Oct-18 19:34:22
Theresa May is incapable of solving the Northern Irish problem.

That is not her fault. It is an insoluble problem.

I may be getting forgetful but I can remember that.

jura2 Wed 17-Oct-18 19:25:25

Yes, and No- the suffering for any family caught up in the Troubles was just that 'human suffering'. And so it would be if the Troubles, came back again.

Jalima1108 Wed 17-Oct-18 19:25:46

Again with every respect, but I believe that the above demonstrates that many leave supporters did not understand the very core detriments of the argument they were voting for.

Well, as a remainer I will not enter into that.

detriments? is it that pesky voice recognition again?

Jalima1108 Wed 17-Oct-18 19:26:55

But, even as a remainer, I still have no idea.

I'm sorry I can solve it and I hope someone can.

Jalima1108 Wed 17-Oct-18 19:27:11

can't solve it
(I wish)!

MaizieD Wed 17-Oct-18 19:33:05

I'm sorry I can solve it and I hope someone can.

It was 'solved' by the GFA, as Patrick Kielty patiently explains in my OP.

Jalima1108 Wed 17-Oct-18 19:34:50

but is in danger of being unsolved - isn't that the point of the thread?

varian Wed 17-Oct-18 19:39:04

It is insoluble. Some of us thought about the Irish border before we voted and obviously then voted Remain.

Jalima1108 Wed 17-Oct-18 19:44:16

Thanks varian - I hope you are "owning" your post because I was just replying to you and agreeing it seems impossible.

But, as DH says -
"The difficult we can do immediately, the impossible takes a bit longer".

Grandad1943 Wed 17-Oct-18 20:24:29

Jalima1108 Quote [detriments? is it that pesky voice recognition again?] End Quote.

Jaliamal1108, I feel the word detriments is entirely the right word in this thread and context.

From Google search this evening:-
Detriment.
The state of being harmed or damaged.

Perhaps a voice recognition app could be very beneficial to some others as well as myself.

I find it wonderful, would not be without it. Most definitely the software of today and reducing keyboard repetitive strain injury in professionals drastically.

As was being discussed on the institute of safety and health (IOSH) website a week or two back, voice recognition is also proving invaluable to people suffering arthritis in their hands,wrists and arms when wishing to use keyboard text.

MawBroon Wed 17-Oct-18 20:28:58

I don’t think detriment has a plural form though Grandad

Grandad1943 Wed 17-Oct-18 21:06:09

Would not know MawBroon. I had a secondary modern education in a council estate school that barely taught us the basics of reading and writing. They closed it down not long after I left in 1960 as a failing school.

That education and a mild form of dyslexia has never stopped me in my adult working life with the wonderful assistance of my wife, Carol.

Even the courts these days do not seem to concern themselves with the absolute correct use of nouns and plural in reports, but only that their findings are clear, accurate and understandable to all who have to read them.

Only on this forum it would seem do arguments develop and people picked up over such matters.

jura2 Wed 17-Oct-18 21:08:14

And how extremely rude it is, for sure.

jura2 Wed 17-Oct-18 21:10:42

Noun
English Wikipedia has an article on:
detriment (astrology)

detriment (countable and uncountable, plural detriments)

JessM Wed 17-Oct-18 21:46:48

It matters because the PM is trying to con us into leaving come hell or high water by parking the Irish question to be resolved by some currently unknown "backstop" at some date in the future. And does not want Parliament to have the final say i.e. a "meaningful vote" is either my "deal" or no deal.
Irish government in full PR mode this week. As well they might be. Cos we will not only be trashing our own economy but theirs as well.

MawBroon Wed 17-Oct-18 21:54:44

Sorry grandadI corrected, but keep the heid!
Interesting tangent you have gone off on jura with a highly esoteric usage of the term

In astrology, a celestial body is said to be in detriment, or exile, when it is positioned in the zodiac sign opposite the sign it rules (over which it has domicile). When a celestial body is in detriment it is said to be not comfortable in that sign and to tend to operate with the least strength

Bound to come in handy for pub quizzes! .

MawBroon Wed 17-Oct-18 21:55:11

“I stand corrected”

Jalima1108 Wed 17-Oct-18 22:20:37

Thanks Grandad
It just goes to show, you're never too old to learn!