Gransnet forums

News & politics

Northern Ireland and Brexit

(364 Posts)
MaizieD Sat 29-Sep-18 10:42:25

An Irishman tries yet again to explain the huge Brexit problem with NI. In response to yet another airy dismissal by Boris Johnson:

Start

Patrick Kielty @patrickielty
And please.... please don't tell me it's "our money" or that the UK government would have done it anyway because I can't be bothered to take you by the hand, lead you to a corner and explain simple things in words of one syllable

1. Northern Ireland is made up of a majority of Unionists (as in the Conservative and Unionist Party) and, believe it or not, a rather large minority of Nationalists (as in Irish Nationalists)

2. These Irish Nationalists don’t see themselves as British but rather inconveniently as Irish (who knew?)

3. For over 30 years we killed each other because of these differences which means Northern Ireland is nothing like Camden or Westminster.

4. The Good Friday Agreement ended that violence by the following devious magic - Unionists were guaranteed that Northern Ireland would be part of the UK until the majority voted otherwise.

The Irish was border was removed and the island linked so Nationalists could pretend they were already living in a United Ireland (yes, Tony Blair did slight of hand much better than you)

5. Some of these Nationalists then accepted being part of the UK as their day to day lives were essentially Irish.

6. This cunning plan was sold to us on the basis that we were all part of the EU therefore fixation on nationality was so last World War.

7. Implementing the Good Friday Agreement was torturous (think Brexit with actual bombs, not metaphorical suicide vests) but we finally made peace. Yet 20 years later NI remains a divided society.

8. Thanks to your glorious Brexit vision Northern Ireland will become more divided as some form of economic border checks will become part of daily lives.

9. If those checks take place between NI and Ireland, the Nationalists who were once happy being part of the UK will change their mind.

10. If they take place in the Irish Sea some Unionists will be livid. However they'll still support being part of the UK (the clue is in the Unionist bit)

11. Your Brexit lies have opened a Pandora’s box for Northern Ireland. It's one reason why the majority of people in NI voted to remain in the EU (almost as if they knew more about the fragile equilibrium of their politics than you)

12. Barely mentioned before Brexit, a border poll is now inevitable thanks to your monumental ignorance.

13. When that poll is eventually held the Nationalists who were once content being part of a Northern Ireland within the UK and EU will vote to leave the UK to feel as Irish and European as they did before Brexit.

14. The poll will be much closer thanks to your Brexit folly and could easily be lost by Unionists, breaking up the UK.

15. Any break up of the Union will be your fault (a tad inconvenient as a member of the Conservative and er, Unionist party)

16. The EU is not responsible for your blundering lack of foresight. Like most people in Northern Ireland they were happy with the status quo.

17. By the time the penny drops that you can’t preserve the Union you want without the one you don’t, it will be too late.

18. You will be remembered not as the Churchillian visionary you delude yourself to be but the ignoramus who triggered the break up of the UK.

19. If there’s any justice all this will come to pass when you're Prime Minister so you can finally swim in the constitutional sewage you've created (though we all know you’ll be in Nice with your trotters up)

20. Meantime, if you’re so concerned about keeping Northern Ireland totally aligned with the rest of the UK where’s your support for our same sex marriage and women’s right to choose? Your silence is deafening.

End

In a nutshell, so to speak grin

Jalima1108 Wed 17-Oct-18 22:23:23

Ps I should have asked DH re the astronomical meaning, but then I could have been listening all evening smile

Sorry - wrong again - it is astrological not astronomical!

Grandad1943 Wed 17-Oct-18 22:42:23

No apology needed Mawbroon, as I thought I would just state how from my position I feel the use and acceptance of grammar has changed in recent years.

It is also good to see that technology has enabled those with disabilities in the above fields to now be able to progress with careers in those same fields.

In that, even when those disabilities are severe, technology such as voice recognition and apps such as Grammarly are assisting and enabling those people to lead lives as near normal as possible.

The world of technology is a wonderful place, and for many of us has brought about opportunities and prospects that we could not even dream of in years past.

annep Thu 18-Oct-18 00:15:55

I live in Northern Ireland. I prefer to remain within the UK. I am fed up with everyone talking about what should happen to me and all the other British citizens here.
Its interesting listening to everyone talking about my country. Many have got the facts wrong, but I'm used to that.

varian Mon 22-Oct-18 19:07:22

A majority of the Northern Ireland public fear being betrayed by Prime Minister Theresa May in the final Brexit deal, a poll for the Times has found.

It comes after Theresa May on the BBC's Andrew Marr show refused to deny that a no-deal Brexit would lead to a hard border being imposed in Ireland. She, and many of her government and leading Brexiteers have stressed they will not agree to any deal with the EU which would effectively see a border created in the Irish sea.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/poll-60-of-voters-believe-theresa-may-will-agree-to-brexit-border-in-irish-sea-37371081.html

The truth is that the question of Northern Ireland is insoluble. It is not the fault of Theresa May that she has not found an answer. There is no answer.

If we want to "take back control of our borders" that means that the only land border between us and the EU would have to be controlled. HOW?

Jalima1108 Mon 22-Oct-18 19:41:39

Its interesting listening to everyone talking about my country. Many have got the facts wrong, but I'm used to that.
annep we tend to forget that there are several Gransnetters who live in NI and we must not do that. There's nothing worse than talking about people as if they can't hear you when they may well be able to do so.

annep Mon 22-Oct-18 20:16:47

Sorry Jalima I didnt mean to sound so rude. And of course people are entitled to have political discussion and voice their opinions. Its just in this country there are two versions of history and truth and even people who have lived here all through the "troubles" find it hard to understand. I think I just get fed up. If I was younger I would move to the mainland. As Varian says there is no (peaceful)answer. I usually vote Alliance but the majority here vote for either unionism or republicanism. They don't think there may be another way to vote. And often views are passed on to the next generation. The peace is very fragile. You can change laws but its more difficult to change how people feel. It is actually depressing. Thankfully two of my children moved to England. Staying in the EU would have been better for us..

varian Tue 23-Oct-18 10:51:34

For anyone who still struggles to understand the problem of the Irish Border, I recommend this short film featuring Belfast-born actor Stephen Rea who explores the real impact of Brexit and the uncertainty of the future of the Irish border.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cZe2ihEZO8

varian Tue 30-Oct-18 18:36:37

If you don't understand the Irish border problem, please listen to this interview with someone who understands it very well.

youtu.be/TK7xIqTp30s

varian Thu 01-Nov-18 22:58:27

A meeting between Northern Ireland Secretary Karen Bradley and the main political parties has been branded a "waste of time".

www.irishnews.com/news/politicalnews/2018/11/01/news/karen-bradley-s-meeting-with-political-parties-an-embarrasing-waste-of-time--1474745/

annep Fri 02-Nov-18 10:00:27

Some comments:
Varian that interview is Simon Coveney's version of the problem. There are always at least two versions here in Northern Ireland.

Same with Sinn Fein saying large sections of the population are being treated with contempt. Unionists would say the same. Both could justify their position.

Which is why the majority of people here vote for extremists. The two major parties are Sinn Fein and Democratic Unionists.
There is a means of a different way - the ballot box, but too many ignore moderate parties.

Our MLAs should be told show up for work tomorrow. Those who don't will have their pay stopped..totally..now. Why are they not told this??? Anyone else going on strike is not paid.
Incidentally I do think an Irish Language act should be passed. Its important to those who feel Irish. Its not too much to ask. ( in spite of the fact I have tried learning it and failed miserably- such a difficult language!) But it needs to be modified imo.

As for Brexit border. Like a lot of people I too would have very much liked to remain. I feel strongly about this. But the fact is the UK is leaving. The solution to me is simple.
We could attach the island of Ireland to Great Britain with superglue. Then establish the border between the UK and the EU. Then we wouldn't be splitting the island!! I can't wait to hear the final solution.?

Everyone fears a return to violence here. Peace is fragile..so many disagreements. Meanwhile nothing important is taken care of. What a country!

varian Wed 07-Nov-18 20:57:13

It is in the interests of all of us that all British people, especially those who have never been to Ireland, understand the nature of the Irish border.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNVtIByTk1M

varian Mon 12-Nov-18 19:05:14

What concerns the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) about the prime minister's letter is that it leaves open the possibility that Northern Ireland would have to continue following EU single market rules.

Theresa May has been consistent that she would not allow Northern Ireland to be in a different customs territory from the rest of the UK.

She repeated that in the letter: "I could not accept there being any circumstances or conditions... which would break up the UK customs territory."

But, she did not rule out Northern Ireland continuing to align with some single market rules if the backstop has to be activated.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46151217

varian Tue 20-Nov-18 13:33:41

The Northern Ireland secretary has sent a clear message to those pushing for a no-deal Brexit: “There would have to be a hard border.” Karen Bradley said crashing out of the EU without a deal next year would result in customs and regulatory checks on the island of Ireland.

She added that World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules are “very clear” and checks would need to be carried out on consignments passing between two customs territories on a contemporaneous basis.

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/no-deal-brexit-would-mean-irish-hard-border-1-5785668

annep Tue 20-Nov-18 17:04:10

I don't get the Dublin port problem. Just go straight to Europe, bypass Gt Britain.

crystaltipps Tue 20-Nov-18 17:58:45

We shouldn’t call it the “Irish” border, it’s the “British “ border created by the British back in the 1920s.

annep Tue 20-Nov-18 18:32:40

And the new one wouldnt be an Irish border either. It would be a border between the UK and the EU.

Grandad1943 Tue 20-Nov-18 19:40:35

annep quote[dont get the Dublin port problem. Just go straight to Europe, bypass Gt Britain]End Quote.

annep, Britain wishes to sign trade agreements with other countries following Brexit. Those countries may well have lower standards in animal welfare, industrial safety, food hygiene standards, workers rights or any number of other standards. The foregoing would give those countries producers a competitive advantage over EU producers of similar products, and therefore tariffs are placed on those products on entering the European Union to balance the competition.

However, if Britain signs trade agreements with countries that have the above lower standards, products from those countries may well be imported into the UK and then into the European Union by way of the North/South border in Ireland circumnavigating those tariffs

Hence the need for a hard border and checks between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic/European Union

Alexa Tue 20-Nov-18 19:47:29

Annep, it will be good to have Irish dual nationality if and when the UK is laid low by Brexit. Although I was born in Scotland I can claim Irish nationality as my mother was born in northern Ireland, and then I can remain part of Europe.

annep Tue 20-Nov-18 22:22:48

Alexa I agree. I am British living in N Ireland. I've also had an Irish passport for some time.
Grandad, in the video the person interviewed was saying what a hassle it would be having to go to Britain and then to the EU. I just don't understand the problem. Or have I got that wrong? I shall listen again....

I do know the EU will need a hard border. BTW I do prefer to remain.

annep Tue 20-Nov-18 22:25:05

Alexa I am pretty sure you have to be born in N Ireland to be able to get an Irish passport.

humptydumpty Tue 20-Nov-18 22:35:42

annep I don't think that is the case-friends of mine who were born in Ireland have 4 children, none born in Ireland, who can all get an Irish passport.

annep Tue 20-Nov-18 23:18:15

Well it would be nice if you were right but I think N Ireland is covered by the GF agreement and it only applies to those born here not their offspring born elsewhere.

annep Tue 20-Nov-18 23:21:49

www.dualcitizenship.com/countries/northern-ireland.html

varian Mon 10-Dec-18 20:14:28

I met someone today, a guy in his late fifties who told me he had voted to leave but was now changing his mind. He said that in the referendum campaign no-one had mentioned Northern Ireland and he'd never thought about the problem of the Irish border, and yet he had been a soldier in the British army serving in NI during the troubles. If he'd not thought about it, I wonder how many other leave voters never thought about it.

MaizieD Mon 10-Dec-18 20:38:36

It's much more complex than that, annep. You can get one if you're Irish by descent, too. So loads of people with Irish grannies are applying for Irish passports so that they can retain freedom of movement in the EU. Including, I understand from mumsnet, some Leavers

www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html