Is today’s Brexit the same as we voted for in 2016.

Varian

As a Lib Dem and fervent Remain campaigning poster can I ask why the Lib Dems changed their opinion over holding referendums concerning the EU ? Certainly not accepting the result.

Am I mistaken in thinking in 2008 the Lib Dems were so entrenched in it's anti view over the Lisbon Treaty the MP's walked out of Parliament with Ed Davey because they were refused an amendment for a debate calling for a referendum on Britain's continuing membership of the EU.

Fast forward only 8 years to the 2016 referendum and 10 years to the total U Turn by the Lib Dems in 2018 when it refuses to accept a result that would have once backed ' the then ' Lib Dem position something must have changed the Lib Dem position massively.

Did you follow the Lib Dem stance at that time or were you a fervent pro EU campaigner then and agreed with the UK signing the Lisbon Treaty ?

How can you repeatedly say that 'people knew exactly what they were voting for' when all they had to rely on was lies, and more lies, and no awareness re Irish border, medical supplies, security, both internal and international, research, nuclear power and all utilities, etc, etc, etc. But now they are suddenly unable to understand what it entails?

In which case, why on earth was there a Referendum? If people are unable to understand the issues when all consequences are clearly explained by all the experts concerned- how could they possibly vote in the first place.

Either people are capable, or they are not. Possibly why in the UK we have a Parliamentary Democracy, and not a direct one.

What rubbish Varian .....’she’ didn’t mean that at all and it’s only you that would choose to think that.
It’s quite obvious that Nfk is saying that another referendum asking for voters to decide on a deal ( that is being proposed by negotiating teams) is beyond any voter, either Remain or Leave voters, as very few are qualified enough to decide if it’s a good deal or not.
It’s highly unlikely that there will be a second referendum at all in any case, as both T May and Corbyn are set against it, and quite rightly so.

NfkDumpling posted " I understand there is no facility for another referendum now even if any of us really could possibly understand all the ins and outs of what’s proposed."

This is wrong. It would be perfectly possible for Parliament to decide to postpone or revoke Article 50 and hold a referendum with the option to Remain in the EU.

She went on "And anyway there are few in the population who are lawyers of the calibre needed to understand the agreements made so far, so what hope is there that the general voter could make an “informed decision” as we’d just be fed lies and suppositions the same as before."

What an admission. She seems to be telling us the vast majority of Leave voters had little or no understanding of the likely consequences of brexit in 2016, and even if it were spelled out to them in no uncertain terms before a People's Vote, they would be unable or unwilling to begin to comprehend the implications, and so would be likely to stick to their mindless sloganising not matter what damage they could inflict on themselves, their children and grandchildren.

What an utterly appalling travesty of democracy!!!

The problem is that during the referendum campaign the leave campaign did not say what sort of Brexit they wanted to implement - different types were (very vaguely) discussed.

I remember Boris Johnson saying that he wanted a soft Brexit in the form of the "Norway model" of being a member of the customs union - but then he flip-flopped to wanting a hard Brexit.

Basically the British public voted for a "pig in a poke" as the various leave campaigns did not set out what type of Brexit they were voting for and what this would mean.

I really don't understand why 'democracy' means we can't have another vote, why not? Now that we know that much of what was promised will not happen, we have seen the necessity to recruit thousands of civil servants to work on Brexit and the value of the pound has fallen dramatically, surely we should have the chance to re-think? What's undemocratic about that? Why are Leavers so scared of a second chance to prove their point? If they are right then the difference will end up greater that in 2016 and they can rejoice in telling us they were right all along.

I don't understand why Mrs May gets the blame for not negotiating the right deal. Why do you think she is doing all the work? It will be the civil servants doing it all and they are the same ones who would be doing it whoever was in charge. What makes anyone think we are in a good bargaining position, why should the EU give us what we want it if is not what they want? I don't understand why anyone would expect them to. Isn't it obvious that a bigger organisation has better buying agreements than a small organisation? Why would we expect to negotiate such good deals with the 70 or so countries with whom we have deals as a member of the EU when we are just one small country bargaining on our own? We are cutting of our noses to spite our faces.

I remember well WW2 and the afterwards the urgent need to mend wounds and ensure Nationalism never creates any undesirable European wars.
Living nightly in air shelters,doing homework by paraffin lamps was not easy. Frightened as bombs were dropping all around & fires in every direction.Yet, life went on & schools opened most days.Mums were conscripted to work in factories & we carried gas masks & lived on rations. Living through that period is. still a living nightmare which I never want my great grandchildren to face. I pray that as I come close to my late life on earth I shall see Europe once again working in close unit and resolving difference by consultation and understanding for one another’s views.

Do we as the public have control,or a say in the billions of foreign aid that is sent each year ? When our own people are having to go to food banks etc.

Even if it does mean the union,Joelsnan.
Can we as a small country ever manage without the guidance/input from the European Union ? No. Because we haven't got the strength in any of our leaders.

Joelsnan
Thank you for the very good post. You said it all.
I was never happy with our membership of the EEC but Maarstrict was a step too far.

Would everyone vote the same again if given the chance ?

The margin between leavers and remainers wasn't that huge and demographically speaking most people wanted to remain.
Going by the leavers most were of the older generation.It was the majority of the remainers who were the young ones along with those from foreign parts who'd made this country their home.

It's the likes of the Spectator which adds propaganda to the mix-----as always !

EllanVannin
We must not split from Europe !!
We are not leaving Europe, we are leaving the EU.
Were we ever not a part of Europe?

andycameron democracy also counts for friendship between countries and each having the ability to talk and discuss without having to go to war to solve differences.

Democracy is countries working together. People have always fought to get their point across. It's what people do. As I've already said the 100 year war was one to end all wars-----but it didn't did it ?

Regardless of who got the majority vote to exit doesn't make it right. Juries in a court of law have the final say on a person's guilt/innocence but they don't always get it right do they ?

President Trump is acting like Roosevelt did with the same hostility towards Macron as Roosevelt was towards de Gaulle on the eve of D-Day. It solves nothing !
Proof of coming together as nations are that both French and German leaders today have left their pasts behind them. We must not split from Europe !!

there can only be a hard brexit, anything else is not leaving, the majority spoke to leave, that is democracy. end of.

I don’t know MarthaBeck. What do you know that the rest of us don’t?

MargaretX
Please don't try to give the impression that the eu give us this money out of the kindness of their hearts.
its our money that they dictate as to how and where we spend it

Certainly the Cornish fishing industry has all but disappeared courtesy of the EU.

The leavers don't seem to realsie that an awful lot of money has been spent in the UK building up and revitalising Cornwall and parts of Wales and East Anglia

in theory, yes.
It depends who benefitted, of course, as to how you look at it and what was revitalised.
Some businesses did very well.

But you are right. Even if we were to stay in the EU now, it wouldn’t be the same as never having left. We’d have to re-negotiate terms!

Eh? The waters around East Anglia been cleaned up by the EU? Not! Our waters are as clean as they ever were but have considerably less fish since EU countries have been able to fish them. There’s no sign saying “This bridge was financed by the EU” because there is no bridge. Not in this bit of East Anglia anyway. We could do with one though (at least).

Whatever the outcome of the deal or no deal staying in the EU will not be the same as never having left.

The leavers don't seem to realsie that an awful lot of money has been spent in the UK building up and revitalising Cornwall and parts of Wales and East Anglia I have never seen a sign saying 'This Bridge was financed by the EU or 'these waters now full of fish' were cleaned up with EU money. These signs are everywhere to be seen in Germany especially on new cycle paths etc

As to social clubs dying out that is really a shame, but not the fault of the EU.

Exactly so Joelsnan. My opinion was also made up many years ago, the referendum was something I never thought would happen. There were lies and exaggerations and imagined predictions from both sides and I took all with a large pinch of salt.

I understand there is no facility for another referendum now even if any of us really could possibly understand all the ins and outs of what’s proposed. And anyway there are few in the population who are lawyers of the calibre needed to understand the agreements made so far, so what hope is there that the general voter could make an “informed decision” as we’d just be fed lies and suppositions the same as before.

Odd question, we have not exited yet so how can anyone say it is worse or better than they imagined.
Those who based their voting preferences on the propaganda peddled in the weeks running up to the referendum may feel empowered or disillusioned, however everyone I have ever spoken to about this say they ignored the propaganda (truths and lies), their minds were made up long before the (remain/leave) ridiculousness ever began. My decision was made on the signing if the Maastrich Treaty and has not wavered.
No one can accurately predict our future be this in or out of the EU. Everything is based upon assumptions and suppositions. Many of those squeeling loudest are those making greatest dividends from cheap manufacturing in Eastern Europe to the detriment of our own workers in UK.
Remaining in EU is not protecting UK jobs, this is a smoke and mirror piece of propaganda our skilled workers are committed to low paid service sector work whilst jobs they should be doing are outsourced.
Why are we up in arms about in work poverty? Why are some living from foodbanks? The ability to move work where it can be done cheapest is one of the biggest (negative) benefits that the EU has brought to UK and many other EU countries . Profits and Dividends has wiped out community cohesion that many manufacturing organisations brought in terms of social inclusivity, the extended employment opportunities that came through the local supply chains to these manufacturers. The social clubs, football clubs, bands, choirs etc. that emanated from the workplace are now gone because much, if not all of this work can be created cheaper in Eastern Europe exploiting the cheap workforce in these countries whilst destroying the workforce and their communities in the UK. These communities being 'prettified' with (so called EU) funding to paper over the destruction whilst not healing the desolation persisting within these communities. Call centres come and go,

It's scary Grammaretto-------we haven't done with war yet if this country decides to leave the EU.
It hasn't been thought out at all save for a handful who can see beyond " just leaving and it'll be alright ". It won't !!
I fear for the futures of our next generation. The government have got it all wrong.

It's not only the cost of staying in the EU that made people vote for out. I'd like to know the real reason.

What happened 100 years ago didn't " end all wars !"