Is today’s Brexit the same as we voted for in 2016.

One of the unbelievably stupid statements constantly repeated by leavers is "we knew what we were voting for"

Utter rubbish. They voted for having cake and eating it, fairy tales, unicorns, sunlit uplands, lies. They may have known they were voting to leave the EU, but not one of them had any idea of the implications.

Even now none of us knows for sure, but those of us who have taken the trouble to look at the evidence, have a pretty good idea that any kind of brexit would leave us all much poorer citizens of a little isolated joke of a country, and a "no-deal" brexit would be disastrous, or in the words of the President of the NFU, "armageddon".

Is that what the leave voters thought they were voting for?

Spot on Varian, such a backwards step for this country, years of chaos ahead etc . But hey we will be Britain just not Great!

Absolutely, varian.

Nish Kumar said, we would be going from Great Britain to Little England.
Especially if the other three countries (who want to remain) decide they are better off without England.

Our identities went for a burton years ago-----more so in the time to come as we'll just be a blot on the landscape.

I identify as European.

I identify as Scottish, British, European and a citizen of the World (or as Theresa May might say, "a citizen of nowhere")

I am first and foremost a member of the human race and far more concerned with what I have in common with my fellow humans than fostering artificial divisions.

That sums me up too, Varian.

This reminds me of what I used to write in my books when I was a child:
Jalima
Street Address
Town
England
Great Britain
Europe
The World
The Milky Way
The Universe

Labour accuses government of defying will of Commons by not releasing full Brexit legal advice

www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/nov/27/brexit-may-deal-vote-confirms-she-wants-tv-debate-with-corbyn-on-deal-before-historic-commons-vote-politics-live

What are they trying to hide?

Why the Government believes that voting to remain in the European Union is the best decision for the UK.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/515068/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk.pdf

The Cameron government got a lot of things wrong. They should never have started this brexit referendum without requiring a solid majority to change the status quo- they should have known that so many ignorant people would believe lies, but this argument they made in 2016 still holds true.

Jalima

Does anyone really think the French feel anything other than French? Or the Italians.....or anyone else living in Europe?
Nobody feels ‘European’ it’s just a way of virtue signalling.
We are a part of the Continent of Europe, that’s all.

Does anyone really think the French feel anything other than French? Or the Italians.....or anyone else living in Europe?

Well, apparently lots of people think that the other 27 EU countries are straining at the leash to lose their individuality and sovereignty and become part of a federal Europe (usually with the corollary 'led by Germany')

Though I've always wondered why 27 solidly nationalistic and distinct countries would be thought to conceivably want that...

I have no idea what you are talking about , virtue signaling. I have felt this way for at least 40 years.

Well the EU hasn’t removed national identities has it? ( contrary to much anti EU opinion)

Though I've always wondered why 27 solidly nationalistic and distinct countries would be thought to conceivably want that...

Maisie D
You don't understand the European mindset they don't want to fight each other any more, after centuries of conflict culminating in occupation of the whole continent except Britain. The now fading older generation remember the knock on the door, neighbors being taken to concentration camps. Civilians suffered much more than the military on both sides, even in the 1990s we had genocide in the Balkans, in Africa and the Middle East it is happening now.

They quite like peace!

I understand that David but it doesn't follow that they want a federal state of 'United Europe'. The EEC and the EU have been sufficient to keep the peace for the last 70 years.

A speech by the PM of Denmark touches on this:

Rasmussen says Denmark is 'pragmatic' about EU. 'Grand ideas of the United States of Europe fall on deaf ears. We're concerned with finding down to earth solutions to everyday problems, to making EU work better. Danes recognise a good deal when they see it and EU is a good deal.'

twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1067790436973068288

And in the same twitter thread someone notes this:

Denmark, the Netherlands and other northern countries are joining each other in a push-back against French and German ideas about a federal Europe... damn shame Great Britain will not be there to join them...

Federal Europe is clearly by no means a done deal.

"Danes recognise a good deal when they see it and EU is a good deal.'"
Exactly - as far as I know countries joined the EU for economic benefits. Remember how desperate Turkey was to join the club, and disappointed when refused.

Germany would be happy with a Federal EU and a few others too but France is even more nationalistic than we are and there are a lot in that camp. When it comes to national pride I guess we are about middle ranking and since the Balkans were settled the has been nothing serious to compete over, except Brexit, we are cooperating.

Boris and his cronies so want to change that and get a competitive edge for the UK. It may well be that we change but the EU is not going to allow us any advantage, they are holding all the cards on a marked deck.

Boris and his cronies so want to change that and get a competitive edge for the UK.

What exactly are we going to get a 'competitive edge' in? A large portion of our manufacturing industry is foreign owned and here because of easy access to the EU market. They're not going to have the interests of the UK at heart when it comes to commercial decisions like relocating to the EU when Brexit makes access from the UK more difficult.

Our biggest 'export' is services; not an item which is easily fitted into trade agreements.

What else do we have?

Germany might be happy with a federal EU but then, Germany is a federation and has been for 100 years. They're comfortable with the idea, though I seem to recall that they were rather forced into it by Prussia initially.

The former Soviet countries have escaped from a federation. I wonder if they would be happy with returning to one, however benign and different from the Soviet Union.

And, as we see, other EU member nations are not happy with the idea at all.

Germany may well be a 'leader' in the EU (as we were) but the EU constitution gives the views of all members equal weight. I can't see it happening. In fact the 'shock' of Brexit where one of the fears of the Leave voters was the formation of a European federation, may well give the EU27 pause for thought as to whether it really is such a good idea. Despite Guy Verhofstadt's impassioned speeches in favour

Fennel it may be a good deal for some countries, those poorer ones that don’t have to pay much in.
We pay huge amounts in and have hardly any sway at all, France and Germany run it for themselves.

The whole leave campaign was about getting better trade deals for the UK with third countries than the EU has negotiated, while continuing no tariff trade with the EU.

Cherry picking if you like, the EU have been clear all along that will not happen. We can leave with no deal, it's our choice but then we have to negotiate new trade tariffs on everything, part of that will involve financial services and fisheries as well as the Irish border, imports and exports and migration.
You can be sure to get favorable treatment for financial services a lot of other sectors will be sacrificed, that is going to cause a great deal of anger in those sectors.

Although Germany is a prime paymaster, all nations have an equal vote at present, they are all backing the existing relationship which is not Federal, each country has its own identity.

Lemon:
" it may be a good deal for some countries, those poorer ones that don’t have to pay much in.
We pay huge amounts in and have hardly any sway at all, "
True,but that could be partly because we chose not to convert to the euro.

It's not true at allFennel

We've had loads of influence over the years. Who invented the Single Market, for a start? Who insisted on the former Soviet countries being allowed into the EU?

You know more than me Maizie. I concede, didn't know about that.
I still think staying out of the euro put us out on a limb.