Is today’s Brexit the same as we voted for in 2016.

I think Kier Starmer is a disgrace saying Brexit can be stopped he should remember he can be stopped as well at the ballot box.

Ohh yes Pogs, I did & she was just the same as any other time I have watched her,rolling eyes, critical, rude, bullshie
& with no actual factual answers to anything she is asked .
Not a good example of the alternatives to what we have now.

Emily Thornberry!
well, I must admit that it depressed me somewhat to think that Keir Starmer and ET are thinking along parallel lines …..

blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2018/05/12/leavers-have-a-better-understanding-of-remainers-motivations-than-vice-versa/

A link which says that 26% to 30% of leavers cited immigration as a reason, so I am assuming that the 90% must have been due to 'fat finger syndrome'.

Apparently/allegedly 90% of the leave votes cited immigration as the reason for leaving.
any hard facts or links EllanVannin

I haven't seen that.

Emily Thornberry!

Did anybody see her interview with Andrew Marr on Sunday?

As always she talked non stop about Theresa May and when she did tell us about the Labour position it was the same old, same old Labour will will negotiate differently and Labour WILL get a deal that means we can have our cake and eat it.

How Labour can even say that eludes me but obviously they can get Barnier, Verhoffstadt, Junker. Merkel, Macron to roll over and have their bellies tickled into submission.

NOT!

EllanVallin
No!!!! Who'd have thought it. Leavers cite immigration as a reason for leaving. You learn something everyday.

“is Brexit today the same Brexit put to the electorate at the referendum 2 years ago? Obviously millions of our electoral no longer believe so, in which case that vote is no longer valid”.

I was probably being pedantic as it did not seem to make sense to me. Brexit was not put to the electorate - a referendum on whether to remain or leave the European Union was put to the electorate.

It's fascinating to hear that Obviously millions of our electoral no longer believe so - presumably in Brexit as presented by the leave campaign. Do you have hard facts to back that up MarthaBeck? I have heard many people say that they did vote Remain, but were there to be another referendum, they would vote to leave.

Apparently/allegedly 90% of the leave votes cited immigration as the reason for leaving.

I think if a country has a legitimate vote, everyone was sent that leaflet setting out reasons to stay in, anyone not convinced by the leaflet had to do a bit of research if they wanted to find out about getting out of EU. At the time we were told the government will stand by the vote of the people. When Scotland voted to stay in UK they were told no more vote for another generation (20 years). Otherwise we would have to vote and re-vote every few years on these big choices.

I voted out having carefully read the leaflet sent out by Cameron. I did a bit of research and discovered there are 28 countries in EU but only 5 countries effectively pay in and take far less out. All other countries pay in small amount and take far more out, sometimes almost five times more than they pay in. It just does not seem a fair system to me. I also looked at global trade and noticed the EU block is growing less in comparison to other trading nations. Also the UK is selling less to EU every year and selling more to outside countries. Many of these countries have said they want to continue to trade with UK after it leaves EU. Along with a few annoying things that EU have legislated on such as vacuum cleaners have to be less powerful now and we can't buy the light bulb we like best and VAT must be charged on sanitary protection. I just think we will be better off in long run if we can make our own trade deals without everything having to go through EU as they are very bureaucratic and take many years to do a trade deal whilst other countries seem to get them done in half of time. I think that is because it is harder to get 28 to agree on something than 1. I think TM has done a dreadful job of negotiating. She is a remainer and generally does not really want to leave. Therefore she agrees to everything the EU suggest even when clearly not in the best interest of UK. It seems nobody likes Chequers, not Brexiteers, not Remainers and not even the EU yet she won't just negotiate a simple trade deal with extras such as security which would appear to be less problematic. She should never have signed up to backstop let alone considering signing up to a backstop to a backstop. I think she needs to resign and allow a new leader contest to determine where Conservatives are heading as she is not doing what she set out in manifesto.

The question if you reread it was “
is Brexit today the same Brexit put to the electorate at the referendum 2 years ago? Obviously millions of our electoral no longer believe so, in which case that vote is no longer valid”. No mention was made of the ballot paper, the question obviously referred to the truth behind the Brexit campaign. We now know there was little truth behind what was said by leavers and remainers. Personally, I strongly believe we’re deliberately deceived. We should have been asked to vote on true factual information, which we now know we were NOT given.

Any manufacturing we still have, like Nissan here in the NE will be finished once we have exited the EU. Perhaps instead of arguing about who was responsible in the past we should be looking at what Brexit will mean for what remains.

Crystaltips
Although the Margaret Thatcher government did result in a decline in manufacturing as a result of soaring interest rates, it is shown that the Tony Blair government oversaw the greatest decline.
Yes Germany does have a reasonably dynamic manufacturing base, remember we were late to the Common Market pary and,, the ‘Made in Germany’ mark certainly does not guarantee all if not any of its components are made in Germany, in fact 60% of its car parts (at least) are made in Eastern Europe. Similarily in the UK many goods are comprised parts made abroad and if we are lucky assembled here and then claimed as ‘Made in Britain’ for the prestige value.
John Redwoods diary (link below) may offer some insight.

johnredwoodsdiary.com/2016/06/16/how-joining-the-eu-led-to-a-big-decline-in-uk-industry/

I am glad to see that in spite of Corbyn behaving exactly like May, stamping feet and insisting that there will be no People's Vote, both Kier Starmer and Emily Thornberry have said the LP could support another vote
If that is so, can I see a glimmer of light at the end of a long, dark tunnel?

Not particularly re the vote - the fact that Corbyn is saying one thing and Keir Starmer and Emily Thornberry both say the LP think differently.

Lazigirl I agree we have become so divided. It is painful and depressing to watch.
Was it always like this? I wonder if the class divide has morphed into a fascist/liberal divide which is different but no better.
I am a remainer more than ever now.
What is less talked about is that many of the European laws and rules were arrived at by British input. It was never them and us but rather us and us (that is us not USA!)

I am glad to see that in spite of Corbyn behaving exactly like May, stamping feet and insisting that there will be no People's Vote, both Kier Starmer and Emily Thornberry have said the LP could support another vote.

If we all need to be lawyers to understand why are we allowed to vote at all? Why are we allowed to sit on juries and decide whether someone is guilty or innocent?

Of course TM is saying there won't be another vote, she has to or she would weaken her negotiating position, isn't that obvious? Once parliament have had their say on whatever deal is agreed she can find a good reason to change her mind.

Margaret Thatcher killed manufacturing in this country not the EU. France. Italy , Germany still make their own cars, tractors, complex machinery, washing machines, high quality textiles etc it’s not all made in Eastern Europe as one poster said, We import so much tat made in the Far East (not made in the EU) you can’t blame the EU for all the ills of this country despite what the Brexiteers say. It was interesting watching a programme about new rail projects ( well the OH was watching it), all the huge digging machines and engines were made in Germany. Seems a shame we can’t make our own stuff anymore.

Thanks Lemon

I am concerned that whatever the outcome of Brexit we are a much more divided and polarised society than we were before the vote. The absolute vitriol shown by both sides is concerning (as evidenced on here) and does not bode well for the future of our country. There is clearly an uprising of nationalism in many European countries, also the US and sadly here, obvious during and since the Referendum. I fear for our future whatever happens after we exit the EU. I cannot see the disgruntled becoming reconciled.

Flexible Friend what sort of fantasy world do you live in? We are leaving. The EU cannot stop us leaving. We signed our own death warrant and it will come into operation in March 2019. What is being dscussed is the sort of deal we will leave with, and Surprise Surprise the EU will not let us have everything our own way in this deal. When ministers like Dominic Raub didn't realise the importance of Dover -Calais to trade you have to wonder what they have been asking for.
Of course there should be another referendum. I do wonder why all the dedicated Leavers are against one. Could it be that they know they would lose?

Well stated , totally agree Nonnie.

^FlexibleFriend Sat 10-Nov-18 15:03:32
Oh and being a member of the EU has worked so well for us, no it hasn't. It costs us an absolute fortune which is why the EU is making it so difficult for us to leave. They won't miss us but they will miss our money. We get treated as though we are irrelevant so why are they fighting so hard for us to stay. They know if we leave they will lose a big chunk of money and they are also worried that if we go others will follow. They are fighting to keep their jobs and they only do that if we stay. The sooner the EU is disbanded the better^

You must forgive me but as a Scottish Nationalist, I cannot resist a parody viz

Oh and being a member of the UK has worked so well for us, no it hasn't. It costs us an absolute fortune which is why the UK is making it so difficult for us to leave. They won't miss us but they will miss our money/oil/fisheries/power. We get treated as though we are irrelevant so why are they fighting so hard for us to stay? They know if we leave they will lose a big chunk of money and they are also worried that if we go NI, Wales, the North will follow. They are fighting to keep their jobs and they only do that if we stay. The sooner the UK is disbanded the better.

If people are unable to understand the issues when all consequences are clearly explained by all the experts concerned- how could they possibly vote in the first place. Except that in the referendum we had that didn't happen.

Both sides just bawled insults at each other and made ridiculous claims about what effect leaving the EU would mean so that even if you thought you could understand the issues, the issues were never raised or discussed. It is still going on with these claims of huge queues of lorries at Dover, food and medication shortages if we have a hard Brexit.

About the only thing we haven't been promised is a plague of frogs and the death of every first born