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The EU - "Take it or Leave it." No alternative agreement.

(48 Posts)
Day6 Thu 15-Nov-18 22:37:31

One has to feel sorry for Theresa May.

As a Brexiteer I do not want us tied for future to Brussels. No way. Corbyn famously said we should have a customs union and agreement with the EU. even though he is saying of late, quite clearly, that we WILL leave the EU next year and there will not be another referendum. Could he have handled the Brexit negotiations and delivered a deal which satisfied the nation? I think not.

May's deal - I don't know the ins and outs of it, the small print or all the consequences of it or benefits or drawbacks, (does anyone at this stage?) but from all I have read, it will tie us to Brussels and it is not the break from the EU many expected or desired, despite her repeating "No deal is better than a bad deal".

We have to remember she has been playing ball with EU bureaucrats who do not want to lose our massive contribution. Naturally they have not made it easy for us to exit. She has had at least half of Parliament haranguing her too and press speculation at every turn.

TM may now have to face a vote of no confidence and people are rubbing their hands with glee that this has split the party BUT - my question is, given Germany's Angela Merkel's "Take it or leave it" stance today is -

Could any minister of any UK party have delivered a deal for the UK which made everyone happy?

I think the answer is no.

I see Theresa May as the fall guy, which is such a shame.

lemongrove Thu 15-Nov-18 22:40:32

I think the answer is no too, it’s impossible for all to be happy.
I very much doubt that anyone could have done better in any case.

Day6 Thu 15-Nov-18 22:54:43

She was handed the poisoned chalice of politics I think. A mammoth undertaking. No one envied her the task.

I cannot think of any other politician who could have stood the course, nor one who would have been able to bring back an agreement which satisfied everyone.

I can think of a few who might have been more resolute/hard line in delivering a Brexit which was more in tune with the referendum result, maybe.

Grandad1943 Fri 16-Nov-18 08:05:48

Britain was always asking for a deal that the European Union was unable to deliver under the rules of the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties. Britain in demanding the free movement of goods and services without the free movement of labour the UK negotiators placed themselves in an impossible position.

Theresa May's deal will at least keep the ports moving freely at the end of March next year and for me, and I am sure very many others that is the most important and urgent matter at this point in time.

Had the leave campaign been honest and pointed out that we could not have free movement of goods and services without the free movement of labour during the referendum campaign, Britain would not be in the position it is in now.

Of course had our negotiators been more skilled we may have obtained a temporary suspension of the free movement of Labour into Britain, but let's face it, our negotiators completely botched it as they were demanding a permanent end to free movement.

The two Brexit secretaries that have been appointed have both "ran away" when realising the above

Sparklefizz Fri 16-Nov-18 08:08:52

And Michael Gove has run away at the thought of the very prospect of the job! grin

lemongrove Fri 16-Nov-18 08:12:55

Gove apparently doesn’t want to be tied to the present format ( of the withdrawal agreement) which T May insists on, so I imagine he may well resign now.

eazybee Fri 16-Nov-18 08:30:21

Theresa May was not handed the poisoned chalice; she chose it, and I still think, despite his faults, Boris Johnson would have made a better job of negotiations, being more able to deal with the antagonistic and contemptuous attitude of the EU. Mrs. May is too gentlemanly in her approach.
She is stubborn, determined and displaying tremendous stamina, but she is not a negotiator. She refused to listen to advice from those who should be her closest colleagues, particularly her two Brexit secretaries and has consistently undermined them. Instead, last December, she followed the advice of Oliver Robbins, civil servant, unelected and therefore unaccountable, to accept the Northern Ireland Backstop and agree to pay £39 billion to the EU without anything in return, therefore losing her bargaining strengths.
Her handling of Chequers and the Wednesday night cabinet meeting, almost a lock in, showed again her refusal to listen, only to compel; deliberately delaying and restricting access to the document they were to discuss. I don't believe her colleagues want her to resign; they want desperately for her to listen and to address their real concerns about the loss of sovereignty her agreement would engender.
The atmosphere in the House yesterday struck me as one of deep concern from all sides, with few attempts at political point scoring.
Goodness knows what will happen to today.

Davidhs Fri 16-Nov-18 08:31:00

The real damage was done by the immature, emotive way that Davies and Boris handled the initial negotiations. This was countered by clod hard logic of the EU, Rabb never had a chance to get past that barrier.

The reality is that the EU is never going to agree to a deal that it cannot control, maybe we could join Norway in an EFTA deal but that is strictly controlled by the EU. Dont forget this current deal is only about leaving the EU not about trade, those negotiations begin on 29th March and are likely to be every bit as acrimonious. Fisheries for instance, forget about the UK taking back control of that, it will be negotiated away in favour of financial services, (it doesn't matter in any case because the boats would have to be crewed by foreign labour.)

Parliament should get real, the EU hold all the cards we never have had any negotiating power we either Remain or Leave with no deal and take the consequences.

Smileless2012 Fri 16-Nov-18 09:48:16

I don't think anyone could have done as well, never mind better.

Very good OP Day6

Caledonai14 Fri 16-Nov-18 10:13:25

As a remainer, I have had to accept that democracy will lead to my country (Scotland) and the industries/careers of my family being much worse off after Brexit, however it will be achieved.

With the shennanigans of Trump and Saudi Arabia, both of whom are high on Britain's trade wish list, I have watched in growing horror as the arrogance of our negotiating position seeks to remove us from a friendly alliance of 27 countries close enough to buy fresh produce and open enough to allow our young people a huge freedom of movement.

My American and Canadian friends tell me travel to Britain causes huge problems when they have to go through lengthy non-EU entry ports. That will be our fate, soon, when we go to rEurope.

For two years I have been horrified at the amount of disdain and insulting language aimed at me for wanting the best for my children and my country.

I am a remoaner, apparently, for seeing the truth and watching this terrible car crash unfold.

Soft fruit rots in our fields and we can't get carers for old people.

Our small local school just lost another teaching post because of the number of young and hard working parents who have been sent packing back to Europe. With our aging population, Scotland needed those neighbours.

I watched events yesterday with something approaching despair.

We are trying to put the blame on the EU when, in fact, it is we who have been belligerent; we who have gone at this like a petulant, rich child and we who didn't think through the consequences for industry, food supply, peace in NI, and impoverishment of rural areas which have benefitted considerably from EU funding.

What happened yesterday is part of a plan to so disgust all sides that we will accept "just getting on with it", even if that means crashing out.

The lack of effective opposition nationally and the constant berating of the Scottish Government for standing up for its citizens is almost criminal and adds to the dismay of we who are being subjected to a cruelty and isolation for which future generations will pay dearly and will not forgive. Nor should they.

It is self harm and you can't blame the EU for protecting its institution and putting the 27 compliant, secure members ahead of this moaning wee minnie of a confused country which spent 3 hours putting the knife into the only firm proposal anyone has come up with, flawed though it might be.

That TM's 500 pages didn't mention Scotland once doesn't surprise me at all. Just as we could see how bad leaving the EU would be for Scotland, we can now see how really awful it is/will be under Westminster absolute power.

And the EU is not to blame.

varian Fri 16-Nov-18 10:29:58

Ever since Boris Johnson characterised his policy on cake as “pro having it and pro eating it too,” Brussels has sought to alert the British negotiators to the impossibility of adopting such an attitude.

In October 2016, European Council president Donald Tusk, taking a rather literal approach to the aphorism, called upon proponents of the ‘cake philosophy’ to carry out a scientific experiment: “Buy a cake, eat it, and see if it is still there on the plate.”

tidyskatemum Fri 16-Nov-18 10:56:15

I think Mrs May has to be admired for sticking doggedly to what is an impossible task when all around her are showboating and thinking only of themselves. No-one will be prepared to take on the job of Brexit Secretary - the second most thankless task in current politics - but previous incumbents of the post eg David Davis have a lot to answer for. And don't get me started on the likes of Johnson and Rees-Mogg.

Labaik Fri 16-Nov-18 10:58:27

Well said, Caledonail4 !

Smileless2012 Fri 16-Nov-18 13:06:46

It's a pity then Caledonail that Scotland didn't vote for independence when it had the chance.

jura2 Fri 16-Nov-18 13:19:35

I actually agree Day6. WOW!

jura2 Fri 16-Nov-18 13:38:09

She is actually getting more support from Labour MPs- like Chukka:

paddyann Fri 16-Nov-18 13:54:07

Smileless2012 would that be because we were told the only way to stay IN the EU was voting NO!!!! Look how well that turned out!

Parsley3 Fri 16-Nov-18 14:11:09

Well said, Caledonian. It is surely common knowledge that staying in the EU was a strong reason for not voting for Scottish independence and here we are a few years down the line being forced to leave.
That aside, it adds insult to injury that those wanting to leave cannot agree on how to do it. I would have had more confidence in a good enough outcome if the negotiations had been cross party rather than having to witness the political shenanigans of the battling egos in the government.
Just leave with no Deal and start from scratch and give us all peace.

Parsley3 Fri 16-Nov-18 14:26:10

Caledonail! Auto correct grrr

winterwhite Fri 16-Nov-18 15:16:46

Agree with easybee. TM chose this job and has stubbornly forged on, not listening to advice, and has made a mess of it. She has made this bed and the rest of us will have to lie on it and very uncomfortable it will be. I see no reason to feel particularly sorry for her. She shows no sign of feeling sorry for those who are going to be hit the hardest.
A journalist this morning commented that we need to concentrate on the pros and cons of this deal and not on the future of the Conservative party. Others are renewing calls for a government of national unity, which I strongly endorse.

Nonnie Fri 16-Nov-18 15:33:47

Poor TM, she was brave to take it on and I suspect always knew she couldn't win. It still amazes me that people think there was a better deal to be had and that in some way TM did all the negotiating. Sorry to bore those who have seen me say it before but I think it is civil servants who do all the negotiating and they would be the same whomever was the official negotiator. It was always blindingly obvious that we couldn't have our cake and eat it.

Actually can I leave the golf club/gym or whatever and not pay my subs but still use all their facilities?

MargaretX Fri 16-Nov-18 16:07:18

I'm sick and tired of hearing about the bad behaviour of the EU officials wo are actually speaking in a foreign language to Mrs May etc
The arrogance of the British delegation who just wanted to break away from something they had signed up for and which was working very well, just because a few workers from distant countries turned up to work in the UK.

All those not working could have been sent back but no one had thought to write down their names and addtresses.

We all knew that M. Barnier could not give Ms May what she wanted even before she set off for Brussels. The old mantra of wanting this and that which could not be given due to the Irish border went on and on unitl M Barnier said he would not go to another meeting unitl Ms May changed her plan which she did but only half, - ridiculous. She made herself and the UK a laughing stock!

merlotgran Fri 16-Nov-18 16:39:07

just because a few workers from distant countries turned up to work in the UK.

Do you honestly think that's the only reason people voted to leave, MargaretX?

Smileless2012 Fri 16-Nov-18 18:11:36

I've no idea paddyann but Scotland voted against independence and I for one am sick to death of the constant moaning from north of the border.

I suppose you've learned the hard way that you can't have your cake and eat it.

Caledonai14 Fri 16-Nov-18 18:33:28

It's one of the few reasons we've been told. Many of the other reasons have come in the form of now-exposed lies or misunderstandings. The villification of politicians who urged caution or tried to get more views into the mix has been hard to swallow.

Many Scots rejected independence because we were told we'd be chucked out of the EU.

Maybe that's just as well because can you imagine how impossibly hard Westminster would have made our own breakaway in 2014?

If we ever do become a sovereign nation again, we have the example of the all-round attempts to smooth things around Irish border as a way of saying to London: "We can, too."

However, nobody I know is thinking about independence at the moment and the only mentions of it come from unionist politicians trying to divert attention from the Brexit omnishambles.

Oh yes, and it takes our minds off foodbanks, child poverty etc.

Conservatives think thudding out of the EU will provide an easy, distant scapegoat for domestic problems caused by Tory policies and austerity. We're not that daft.