Anna Soubry

maryeliza54 Thu 10-Jan-19 14:09:43

" ilove is there an example of these fascist thugs surrounding a male MP?"

Look how Labour MP Jim Murphy and I think Eddie Izzard were treated in Scotland.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-scotland-32581803
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Look at how Jacob Rees-Mogg was treated :-

www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/02/jacob-rees-mogg-involved-in-scuffle-at-university-campus
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Look at how Farage was treated in Scotland :-

www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/may/16/nigel-farage-edinburgh-protesters-van

Remember the time he was with his family in the pub?
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Nasty people believe in thuggery, abusive behaviour and rhetoric and they are not from any one side of an arguement or politics. They can be from the left or right of politics.
They can be passionate Remain or Leave voters. They usually hide behind anonymity and think it OK to feel differently about who or what is being threatened because it suits their own agenda. They often feel emboldened by being part of a group or possibly engaged in activism which they see as some sort of narcasistic way to make others see the world through their eyes or abide by their way of doing things.

The thing they have in common is ' They are Nasty People ' who at times overstep a line of decency and probably end up doing ' their cause' more harm than good.

Debate,, arguement, questioning, sarcasm or proving your point is nowhere near the above and for the most part that is what people engage in and long may it live but the likes of those surrounding Soubry et al are not prepared to do that they enjoy bullying and and see no problem with their actions because that is inherent in their nature, character in the first place whether they are from the left or right makes not a jot of difference.

Maizie d

" If those two 'examples' are the only ones POGS can find after 2+years of pretty solid posting (cue POGS frantically searching for more grin ) then I think it's a pretty pathetic effort."
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Oh I could find plenty more with minimal effort but I remembered the thread and thinking at the time this is not the first time Leavers had been called Brexshitters.

I tried to make my point initially by making a generalised comment but if and when a poster turns into a personal confrontation then I think it is only right, fair and proper to provide evidence, so I did.

MaizieD
Not at all. I'm just very pleased that yours and Varians double standards have been exposed.
I stand by my last sentence in the post above.

You are probably right about the thugs not surrounding a man Maryeliza54 .
Also you are right that men and women should be treated as being equal in a wider sense than physical strength, but there are still so many situations, such as the one that occurred at that men only event where those young women were groped by those men, where there is an imbalance of power, and women are aware that the power can always be reinforced by physical means.

What a wild imagination you have, Petra.

You do strain my civility to its utmost, lemon!

If those two 'examples' are the only ones POGS can find after 2+years of pretty solid posting (cue POGS frantically searching for more ) then I think it's a pretty pathetic effort. You'll note that I didn't actually refer to Leavers as 'racists' in the first quote and perhaps the context of the second might be useful; i.e it was in response to Remainers being called 'remoaners'.

POGS
You don't often post but when you do ???
I would imagine that there are several posters who are ( from now on ) thinking twice about how they describe brexiters.

MaizieD that blows out of the water any sense of ‘civility’
You think you have been engaged in on the subject of Brexit.
The truth is that on GN, as well as MN and other social media, Remainers have been nearly out of their heads with
Outrage that the vote didn’t go their way, and felt that gave them leave to be as ghastly as possible.They have been that way for two years, and possibly will go on being so even after we leave the EU at the end of March.

Excellent point about physical strength and concepts of equality annie and the correlation with sex. Just as there is a correlation with age for example. Is an 80 year old equal to a 40 year old in physical strength? Doesn’t mean they are not ‘equal’ in a wider sense

ilove is there an example of these fascist thugs surrounding a male MP? My guess is no because they wouldn’t do that. The average right wing thug as well as being racist will be sexist. I wouldn’t call it interfering for the police to clear a way to allow an MP to freely enter their place of work and the fact that these ‘men’ might have shouted ‘victim’ is hardly a good reason to allow any MP to be put in harm’s way

True POGS i was told in a post at the end of last year, on a politics thread ‘ you are now a target ‘ , this was a personal threat

I do think seeing a woman surrounded by a group of men more troubling than seeing a man surrounded, not that I think it acceptable for a msn, , but how many abused women die at the hands of men in this country every week . Equality doesn’t give equal physical strength .

MaizieD Thu 10-Jan-19 10:21:47

"God knows I have taken to task gransnet posters who have chosen to make their point against other gransnet posters by using the words such as Brexshitters/Road Kill /Vermin /Natzis/Racists /Xenophobic.

God might know, POGS but I don't think many of the regular posters on Brexit themes would actually confirm this image you have of yourself as the forum politeness monitor.

I've always been quite impressed at the level of civility we've managed over the past 2 years. Compared to Mumsnet and twitter... hmm"
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Maizie d your last sentence is far from the truth and the ability for posters to forget what they have said astounds me.

As you have turned my post into a personal rather than as I scribed a general point and posted in a manner that requires a response of a personal nature I will remind you too of ' just a couple of posts ' you have made over time.:-

MaizieD Thu 18-Jan-18 22:33:03

"I think Leave voters are just a teeny bit sensitive to the fact that they are, so to speak, in bed with racists..."
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MaizieD Fri 19-Jan-18 09:14:54

"Remoaners on here...

I have held off for a long time but I think from now on Leavers are Brexshitters"
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I will stand by my words and if you feel you need to call me
some sort of ' forum politeness monitor.' then that is your prerogative.

My point is whatever an individuals politics whether it be a Gransnet poster or MP , left or right of politics don't be a hypocrite and only care if it fits your spin, your bias when it could be pointed out on other occasions your / their comments/feelings have been the opposite to the point you/they are making on any other day.

This thread seems to have turned into another Brexit one, but I just wanted to say that I thought Day6 made a very good point much earlier in the thread about Anna Soubry, I think I was guilty of what Day6 suggested, that I did think it was worse for a group of men to surround a woman M.P. than I would have thought had it been a male M.P.

I also thought the police were in a bit of a tricky spot, men like that group do love to be painted as martyrs, which they would have been if the police had intervened.

Some of lies posted on this forum with links , should they be banned ?

Any examples, Annie?

Maizie the press are free to print what they wish, within the law, it is up to the public to decide if true or a lie.

Some of lies posted on this forum with links , should they be banned ?

No press freedom Labaik ?

Are you defending the freedom of the press to tell lies, Annie?

What worries me the most are the targeted 'dark ads' which are on social media and only seen by the people who the campaign thinks will be receptive to them. With mainstream media 'lies' at least they are there for everyone to see and can be challenged. Whereas 'dark ads' can't be challenged because only the 'target' knows what they say. To me this is a very dangerous and undemocratic practice.

Fair point Jabberwok. Yes Labaik the BBC was sadly lacking last time continually showing that bus and not challenging what it said.

I do think though that a lot more information is now available and it has become clear to all but the really dim or people with entrenched views that what was promised will never happen. Some may still want to leave and that is fine but if they are given more information some of them will make informed decisions. It is also possible that some who wanted to stay may now want to leave. The only way to avoid splitting the country is to give us all a chance to vote on any available options.

Only if press freedom means a lie is shown to be a lie and when newspapers apologise for doing so the apology is on the same page and the same size as the original. Does anyone remember the full page article saying the Queen supported Brexit? It astounded me back then and does so to this day, because, sadly, some people believe the lies.

No press freedom Labaik ?

I can be certain of one thing and that is that 'brexit' isn't working and this country can't carry on the way it is when parliament is almost totally taken up with trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. And maybe, if there is a second referendum the gutter press will not be allowed to run front pages full of blatant lies and Farage won't have posters showing him standing in front of swarms of refugees stating that they are 'migrants'. Oh, and maybe the Irish question will be commented on and not swept under the carpet as it was last time.

You say that another referendum would be run on facts not fiction, and of course run with scrupulous honesty! How can we the electorate be certain of this when points of view differ so greatly, how can you know that information won't be as slanted as before? How can anyone be certain of anything anyone says or writes when own agendas are alive and well on both sides?!! Who do you believe?!! Will it be a surreptitious fix?!!! Questions on the ballot paper slanted, Who on earth are these people that you can you trust to give a fair and balanced view on both sides?!!

maxdecatt

I refer you to my post yesterday (9th Jan: 17.55) where I copied and pasted exactly what the House of Commons Library briefing report said about the status of the 2016 referendum.

In fact, let's see it again in case you can't be bothered to look back a page:

This Bill requires a referendum to be held on the question of the UK’s continued membership of the European Union (EU) before the end of 2017. It does not contain any requirement for the UK Government to implement the results of the referendum, nor set a time limit by which a vote to leave the EU should be implemented. Instead, this is a type of referendum known as pre-legislative or consultative, which enables the electorate to voice an opinion which then influences the Government in its policy decisions. The referendums held in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in 1997 and 1998 are examples of this type, where opinion was tested before legislation was introduced. The UK does not have constitutional provisions which would require the results of a referendum to be implemented ,

Report which contains this can be downloaded from here:

researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7212

I think you'll find max, that the referendum in Catalonia and the subsequent attempt to break away from Spain was in defiance of the Spanish constitution and therefore illegal. Like Scotland needing the permission of Westminster before holding a referendum, Catalonia needed the permission of Madrid to do the same. This they clearly didn't have, and unilateral independence is simply not a goer as it could lead to the break up of a nation which is certainly not desirable unless its done in a proper legal fashion.

Maxdecatt yes, we do live in a democracy which is the reason we should have another vote. This time it should be on facts not fiction and all campaigners she stick to the rules. That would be true democracy.

Over some time and on several threads I have asked Leavers why they are afraid of another vote. If they are so keen on democracy and so sure that the people want to leave the EU, what are they afraid of? So far I have not had a single reply. Interesting.