Merkel clearly calling for an EU Army

We are leaving the EU. Doesn't that make us very vulnerable? They could overrun us on a whim, Scary, very scary. We are members of NATO and will still be members of NATO whatever happens about Brexit. Which means that if the EU Army separates from NATO the remaining members would have to come to our aid, the same as we would have to go to theirs. Personally I would sooner put my faith in a reduced NATO than throw in my lot with a Franco German dominated alliance that would in all probability have no credible defence posture. Above all I have absolute faith in the discipline, expertise and integrity of our defence forces, who, in all honesty, are the envy of much of the world. It is widely acknowledged that, because of that, the Europeans would far rather have us on side than not.

POGS NATO can say what it likes but as people keep telling us the EU is a law unto itself!

Trump has complained about paying too much into NATO so that could change the balance completely.

Nonnie

"Is there a reason an EU army couldn't be part of NATO? We have our armed forces and are still part of NATO"
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Obviously some individual EU Members are already NATO signatories. Others are not.

Would / could those who have made a Sovereign decision to be members of NATO remain as such or would they be required to align with the decision of the EU when it came to voting rights etc?

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg says this:-

" But I have been equally clear about the fact that EU efforts must not compete with NATO, must not duplicate NATO, because NATO remains the bedrock for European security. We have to remember that after Brexit 80% of NATO’s defence expenditure will come from non-EU NATO Allies. And 3 of the four battlegroups we have deployed in the eastern part of the Alliance, in the Baltics countries and Poland will be led by non-EU Allies. And also geography matters. Norway in the North, and Turkey in the South, and Canada, USA and UK in the West are important for European security. So geography and money, these are facts which we cannot ignore."

Agree with Nonnie and Crystal. What is everyone so afraid of? Why would we be safer rather than inside a EU army in the event of serious aggression? (They came for my neighbour on the left and I looked the other way; they came for my neighbour on the right and I was not at home. They came for me and there was no one left.

We have been ready enough to commit forces in the Middle East to fight in quarrels that are nothing to do with us. Why would the EU be so different?

I don't think all the EU nations have an equal veto. Didn't I read that some of the newer ones don't?

I think crystal has made a good point. So the EU is going to raise an army which will be controlled by uncontrollable leaders. We are leaving the EU. Doesn't that make us very vulnerable? They could overrun us on a whim, Scary, very scary.

Is there a reason an EU army couldn't be part of NATO? We have our armed forces and are still part of NATO

An EU Army signals a shift by the European Union towards territorial defence. In other words, collective defence of EU territory. Some would say this is inward looking. It has been said that the eastern European states have expressed their strong preference for NATO and rejected the idea of a European army on the grounds that only a US led NATO coalition can provide an effective military hedge against the Soviet Union, and that they are unlikely to give up this resistance anytime soon.

I do not feel comfortable with an EU army because the idea of large blocs is quite scary - US, China, Russia, EU. Like playground gangs. We started off in a Common Market to improve ease of trade and here we are in something quite different.

Paddyann / crystal tips

How is it project fear created by leavers?

I know I have posted about the prospect of an EU Army ''PRIOR TO ' the EU Referendum and so have other posters.!

Have some posters really been unaware of the rhetoric surrounding an EU Army?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31796337. March 2015

European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker has called for the creation of a European army to face up to Russia and other threats.

Mr Juncker said such an army would restore the European Union's foreign policy standing and show it is serious about defending its values."
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www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31802171 2015

"The army card

Forming an EU army is not a new proposal. And every time it resurfaces, it is quashed almost immediately.

Note the swift rejection by the British government.

Perhaps, in making headlines with EU army talk, Mr Juncker is following in the time-honoured tradition favoured by world leaders of trying to divert attention abroad when all is not well at home.

It's an extremely useful tool.

President Francois Hollande, for example, has suffered the worst popularity ratings on record of any French leader."
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The UK has been a thorn in the side of those in the EU such as Junker/Hollande/Merkel/Macron who have called for an EU Army. If they use the term ' EU Army ' I do not understand how some still call it fantasy, a lie!

Since the UK Referendum result to leave the EU it is being ramped up because the likes of Junker/Merkel/Hollande/Macron can see a pathway to achieve their goal.

Yes it does require all the other Member States to agree but the principal of Member States ' Vetoes ' is already declining in principle and being challenged over taxation , the need for the ' Ever Closer Union' / Federal Europe as some see it.

Excellent, well balanced post, TerriBull.

Crystaltipps, I'm not sure everybody understands that all EU-nations have a veto.

The Aachen treaty is between Germany and France. The fact that they are trying to work together and find common ground instead of endless confrontation and bickering is, in my opinion, positive.

GabriellaG54, it seems one of your posts has been removed. Rightly so. If you want to give Leavers a bad name that is exactly the sort of post you should submit.

How are they going to fund a European Army? NATO has kept Europe safe for over sixty years and NATO works. But the United States is increasingly frustrated that there are only a few nations apart from itself that currently pay their agreed 2% of its GDP into NATO. We are one; surprisingly Greece is, or was, another. Germany pays less than Estonia, or Lithuania or Rumania, and Germany is a major player. The American President is not flavour of the month with many people at the moment, and if he carries through his sabre rattling intention to pull out of NATO the Germans would almost certainly take a serious revenue hit as most US troops are stationed in their country. Personally, I would doubt that the German people would be particularly happy about losing that US spending power.

The U.K., if it hadn’t been so mealy mouthed, superior, and beset with the likes of Farage et al, could easily be a major player in the EU, and yes we do have an equal veto.

Project Fear from leavers. On the one hand, the EU is weak, useless and about to collapse, on the other it is overbearing, all powerful, militaristic and about to march into the Isle of Wight.

Theres a lot more people in this country doing that salute ..the bigots and racists have all come out of the woodwork since Brexit raised its ugly head.You can even see them on Scottish streets though they are a bit rarer,usually in Rangers tops or OO garb and waving union jacks while calling SNP "nazis" Clearly they haven't the brains to know the salute they are giving is NAZI ,or as my OH says they're on a brain share scheme and they dont know which one should be having the use of it .
Of course you'll all be pleased to see armed troops on our own streets

surely as EU members we could veto this if we didn’t like it?

Surely??? Surely???

You must be joking. There is nothing 'sure' about the machinations of the EU now.

You have much more faith in our power of veto within the EU, or of even being heard, than I and millions of other UK residents have. Give Brussels military power as well?

No way!

And you’d only fear an army you aren’t part of surely?

I'd fear an EU army and so would others. Our own forces and our allies in Europe would rally should we ever be threatened. The power of Brussels, plus the fact that we seem to hold very little sway within the EU makes the thought of an EU army somewhat terrifying - not because of it's dubious might, but because that army would be directed by military generals maybe not to our liking, or working towards the good of the UK.

Many EU administrators, committees and figureheads aren't to our liking or to the liking of many of the dissatisfied member states in the EU. Imagine the power military officers would wield. Why would we sacrifice our troops/forces to an unknown but extremely powerful strategist?

The EU wants to create a power bloc. I find that disturbing.

'^increased roll for Germany and France^'?
Let's hope they learn to lie down first.

We might have to practice putting one arm at 2pm.

But you havent answered my points- surely as EU members we could veto this if we didn’t like it?
Some commmentators have called this ( project) fear , to quote -
“Merkel was also attacked at home for falling into the trap of appearing to endorse, at least in theory, some of Macron’s more high-flown ideas about a joint eurozone budget, banking union, common taxes and European army. Alexander Gauland, leader of the far-right Alternative für Deutschland party, said Macron was trying to grab “German money”. Such claims are nonsense. So, too, is the idea put about by Eurosceptic media in Britain that Paris and Berlin are conspiring to seize full control of the EU and impose a new, shared hegemony at the expense of smaller states. The real problem with the new treaty is that it is mostly a bland, unambitious fudge.”
“Thank goodness Macron and Merkel, for all their faults and weaknesses, can still see the bigger picture.( peace, security, a bulwark against the USA- China, Russia) .These days, for the most part, Britain’s small-minded leaders cannot see beyond their rather stuck-up noses.” www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/22/merkel-macron-europe-treaty-france-germany?

POGS
Now we know why Germany have 'long pockets and short arms' when it comes to paying their dues to NATO.

Crystaltips

The UK has been against the calls for an EU Army/Defence Force. This is not a new discussion it is simply the case some have chosen to deny , call the proposition a fantasy , a lie. Others have chosen to see the proposition as a distinct possibility. Since Article 50 was triggered it appears the voices from Junker/Merkel and Macron have raised the stakes .

The UK/ Malta / Denmark are the only EU Member States not to sign up to ' PESCO '

Over the period of time I first noted the calls for an EU Army/ Defence Force/ Alliance within the EU I have been concerned over the roll of NATO and our defence in the UK. To be fair the comments from NATO can be contradictory sometimes.

It is already known that the UK pays it's share to NATO whilst other EU Member States do not. PESCO and the Member States involved will have to either increase their countries defence spending to fulfill their obligation or take it from their NATO contributions. Defence is not cheap. As with any Defence Organisation somebody has to head it up and so far all I see is an increased roll for Germany and France.

www.eda.europa.eu/what-we-do/our-current-priorities/permanent-structured-cooperation

The fact remains the use of the term ' EU Army ' is now openly being voiced and it will be difficult to put it back in the bag.

But if we were in the EU we could veto it. And you’d only fear an army you aren’t part of surely? So leaving the EU when you are convinced there is going to be an EU army doesn’t really make sense.

One of my concerns at the time of the referendum was, among other things, the murmurs of a European Army. I was told very briskly that it was a complete fantasy and my concerns were of my ill informed imagination. Really?!!!!

May I just add that it was actually 2009 when the French recommitted - on the 60th anniversary of NATO. Apologies for the error.

TerriBull
As you say, you post very often on the political threads.
But what a good post when you do.
'Some' posters do seem unaware of what's going on in Europe but there are many of us who have been watching the 'situations' unfold for some time and it's not looking good as your last paragraph refers to.