Merkel clearly calling for an EU Army

They may be out of reach for now, but it won’t stop them trying.

I think that their ambitions may be well out of reach.

And don't forget that reporters don't write their headlines...

Maizie d

" Brexiters’ scaremongering about a European army is just another of their lies "
--

That sums up the mentality behind the article in my opinion.

Carry on believing Junker, Macron, Hollande , Merkel and the voices I have heard for myself coming from the EU Parliament over time that have used the term ' EU Army '.

Are they all Brexiteers and liars as that is the implication according to Lis and the Guardian

Jonathan Lis in the Guardian

Brexiters’ scaremongering about a European army is just another of their lies

Merkel and Macron’s Aachen treaty applies only to Germany and France, which remain both EU members and sovereign nation states. It is their prerogative to pool military capability if they wish. Likewise, in accordance with the Lisbon treaty, the EU decides all defence policies unanimously. If there ever were plans for a bona fide EU army, any member state could veto it.

But the larger point here is that the EU army of such lurid British nightmares cannot and will not emerge. There will never be any situation in which Brussels rules over a series of battalions and member states are compelled to deploy their armed forces against their consent. The main reason for that is the EU’s national governments hate the idea and always have.

The EU commission head, Jean-Claude Juncker, has also proposed an EU defence union in the next decade. Much like Pesco, advocates intend for it to boost individual countries’ capacities, pool resources and erase the need for member-state rivalry or duplication. Juncker has insisted that it would not impinge upon Nato. Nato’s secretary general, for his part, has welcomed the EU’s defence programmes, provided they do not seek to compete with his organisation. Juncker will leave office this year and have no power over the future of EU defence either way.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/25/brexiters-european-army-myths-franco-german

This is interesting, too:

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-defence/brexit-turmoil-delays-deal-on-britains-eu-defence-ties-idUKKCN1NO1N4

Gabriella G54, I apologize. I got the threads mixed up. I still find your post on 'BREXIT: Planning for No Deal' on 22 Jan at 21.29 flippant. You obviously think concerns about Brexit are amusing. Many people are worried since their livelihoods will be affected. Also, the last sentence in the above post: ”Best to sit back and enjoy the mayhem while TM cuts all ties with...” It looks to me as the two emojis at the end of the sentence represent a bretzel and a frog? Do you seriously think that is respectful?

Nonnie

" POGS don't take it personally, there is a lot of it about, accusations, deliberate misunderstandings, pure lies etc."

Yes there are!

Oh!
I thought I'd followed Alice

jalima
No, your ok
I think it was wishful thinking on someone's part

I agree with Pogs; I don’t believe for a minute that the USA will pull out of NATO. As I said upthread, Trump is sabre rattling and good sense will prevail (even if it isn’t his!). Although other US presidents have expressed concern about the disparities in NATO contributions from some countries, they have never threatened to pull out. They value their role, in conjunction with all the other countries who are reluctant to pull the rug out from under the alliance.

POGS don't take it personally, there is a lot of it about, accusations, deliberate misunderstandings, pure lies etc. Your not appearing to notice what I said is nothing compared to some properly nasty posts. Honestly, just started me thinking about some of the posts in the last week or so.

Nonnie

POGS "Did you note in the comment from NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said this :-

" We have to remember that after Brexit 80% of NATO’s defence expenditure will come from non-EU NATO"

Yes did you note my response to it?"
----

Yes Nonnie I did :-

"POGS NATO can say what it likes but as people keep telling us the EU is a law unto itself!

Trump has complained about paying too much into NATO so that could change the balance completely."
-----
I responded to your posts saying along the lines I thought Trump was in order to raise the USA paying too much and brought in other countries .

I think you are saying that if Trump took the USA out of NATO or paid in less then the comment from NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg is of no consequence as the balance will have shifted ?

I agree with your view but I do not believe the USA will leave NATO , in fact The U.S. House of Representatives passed legislation Tuesday barring the USA from withdrawing from NATO and as for the finance it is quite fair for Trump to raise the point that there is an agreement by NATO Members to pay in 2% of their GDP and countries such as Germany are not doing so.

To post as you did:-

" Anyone else sick and fed up of people posting comments about posts they haven't read properly? Also those who decide they know what you think based on absolutely nothing? "

I will not respond other than to say I will leave it up to other posters to agree or disagree with your evaluation of my posts, can't do much else really.



Anyone else sick and fed up of people posting comments about posts they haven't read properly? Also those who decide they know what you think based on absolutely nothing?

POGS "Did you note in the comment from NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said this :-

" We have to remember that after Brexit 80% of NATO’s defence expenditure will come from non-EU NATO"

Yes, did you note my response to it?

Anyone else sick and fed up of people posting comments about posts they haven't read properly? Also those who decide they know what you think based on absolutely nothing? I'd start a thread about it but would be accused of posting a thread about a thread. Not because it would be about a particular thread but other posters would refer to other threads and it would get deleted by HQ!

To be honest, I’m not sure what is driving the German determination to be at the forefront of a European Army. It will more than likely soak up more of their GDP than their current NATO membership, and it is at the forefront of the NATO command structure. This year it will be in command of the Very High Readiness Joint Task Force, the spearhead of NATO. Germans have commanded the Allied HQ in the Netherlands for all but about four years of its existence (they let us have a go one year!). France can claim no such military accolades. So what’s it all about?

petra

Greta said a post had been removed
GabriellaG54, it seems one of your posts has been removed Rightly so.

have I fallen down the rabbit hole again?

Perhaps Macron feels that this is what France needs as he is scarcely in control.

I don't believe this army is for defence. I believe it will be used against European people, people who dare to go against their governments.

crystaltipps Wed 23-Jan-19 21:15:26

" It’s project fear because it hasn’t happened "
---

Whether or not it has or will happen.

Whether or not posters agree or disagree with the concept of an EU Army.

I am at least proving the point that those posters/commentators who have repeatedly trashed the idea it was even a remote possibility have been the ones who have been mistaken and no doubt will be thick skinned or disingenuous enough to carry on doing so even when the evidence is mounting up to conclude otherwise.

Like you are still doing they called the concept of an EU Army :-

Project Fear
Fake News
Lies
Scare Mongering
Leavers Fear Mongering
Fantasy
Dishonest
Gullible
Etc Etc.

After many discussions on Gransnet ' PRIOR TO ' and after the Referendum these posters have used the above sort of terms to try and belittle posters who did accept there was talk of an EU Army and that has been the case for some time.

Now you can carry on calling it ' Project Fear ' till kingdom come but what you and those who have lambasted other posters over time as being gullible , believing in Project Fear cannot do is continue to dismiss the Horses Mouth .

When Merkel/Macron/Holland's/Junker use the term EU Army they mean the EU Army no matter how much commentators / posters think otherwise.

Jalima
That's because it hasn't

I can't see that a post has been deleted

Nonnie

" Trump has complained about paying too much into NATO so that could change the balance completely."
--

Trump/America is correct to raise the point that some NATO countries do not honour their fair share of the finance in my book. The USA is well over the 2% GDP threshold and pays 3.6 - 4% of it's GDP. In hard cash sums it is a massive payment compared to any other country.

Unless things have altered it's only the USA / UK/ Estonia/ Greece/ Poland that have spent the agreed 2% GDP threshold NATO countries agreed to pay.

Did you note in the comment from NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg said this :-

" We have to remember that after Brexit 80% of NATO’s defence expenditure will come from non-EU NATO Allies. "

The UK is also at the top of the table of EU Member States paying into the EU Defence budget . Again unless things have changed Estonia pays the most , Ireland the least. Germany is calling the shots but it does not deserve to because it does not come anywhere near other countries in NATO or the EU Defence Expenditure.

Merkel calling for an EU Army is a ruddy cheek in my opinion and the other EU Member States I hope will remind Germany how small it's GDP contributions are regarding Defence.

' If ' the UK leaves the EU I wonder if wealthy Germany will start to contribute it's fair whack? Even if we remain I hope the UK will not pay more than the likes of Germany and France any longer.

Greta
...and which one would that be?

Surely all the different languages spoke through out the EU would pose a problem to an EU army?
A universal language Esperanto?
German? French?
Can't see them wanting to go with English.

It’s project fear because it hasn’t happened - and we’d be able to stop it if we remained in the EU, just like all the things remainers have predicted which are labelled project fear - £ crashing, job losses, food price rises, political crisis, companies haemorrhaging from the U.K., troops on the streets, I could go on - these are all just “project fear”?

Whichever way you look at it nobody is going to start a war in Europe without US support, the EU, Germany in particular is increasing its land forces to replace US troops that have been withdrawn. The reality is acting against US “permission” would cause a lot of supply problems, so just why Merkel wants a separate army from NATO I have no idea. Maybe to integrate Eastern European nations into the defense force, maybe to finance it through the EU system instead of nationaly.

Well as we are leaving we'll have no say either way.