Scottish Independence

Gilly I believe you! ?
A similar incident happened to my English daughter in law and now sadly she has no wish to go back to Scotland's.
As a Scot I am deeply saddened this.

Gaun yersel' Chucky! Thanks for all the facts and figures. We are indeed much better together.

Personally I think Scotland should become independent and I would dearly love to be able to vote and be rid of them, living in the leafy English Midlands does not enable me to do that. Scots vote on matters that affect me and I want a vote on their future.

Scotland has a similar population to Norway and similar natural resources there is no reason why they should not prosper on their own. There are a couple of hitches to be overcome Norway has a very high cost of living, taxation regime and is not an EU member which may be an obstacle for them.

Granny23 with great respect, the figures are from June 2017. They are the current facts and figures as there has not been another General Election since then! That election was after the UK had voted to leave the EU! The turnaround on the SNP showed that the Scottish people still wanted to be part of the UK and was a vote for that as much as anything else! Polls are very often wrong (last general election, vote on EU as examples) however the figures I quoted are just that, fact! I am sure you agree?
You say recent “Polls” say 60% of Scots want another referendum. They didn’t ask me!! Please do not quote Polls as they are subject to a very small proportion of the electorate and really aren’t worth the paper they are written on, as has recently been shown! I am entitled to a vote and would certainly vote Remain again. I also voted to Remain in the EU, however it is far more important to me to stay in the United Kingdom, rather than the EU and many I have spoken too agree with this!
If there were another Independence Referendum I would be very surprised if the result was not even more overwhelming to remain part of the UK.
What sickens me in the row over independence is that the SNP do not want Scotland to be independent!! It wants Scotland to be ”dependent” on the EU. Why on earth does anyone wish to split from our nearest neighbour, who is the biggest importer of Scottish goods and with whom we have stood side by side with over many years, but then be dependent on countries like Latvia, Bulgaria, France, Germany and the rest of the EU countries, who’s languages we do not speak and who really do not give a damn about us, except to see what they can get out of us.
The EU may not want Scotland back anyway! If they do, it would be because they thought we could help shore up the other EU countries! Then we would have to do what they tell us to do!
Surely Scottish Independence, should be just that, a country who is independent from all others?

It started as a lovely day with the boats coming up the river ......families watching and cheering ..... , my DH and I were there tracing his ancestors and places he remembered visiting as a child (as we often do when we are in Scotland) and then.... well........ goodnight x

Thank you Paddyann you have now confirmed what I feared, you were there. That day it was horrible to be English in Scotland . I felt frightened , intimidated and very unwelcome (something I have never, ever felt in Scotland ... a place that me and my DH visit regularly and love dearly ) if that day is your idea of peaceful protest/ campaigning then maybe I am a feeble, easily intimidated person. Or maybe you wear those rose tinted glasses .... I don’t know. Please don’t SHOUT though I’ve had a long day .

NO ONE I SEE ON MARCHES IS USING THREATENING BEHAVIOUR OR LANGUAGE

She said, in block capital letters; otherwise known as shouting!

Paddyann while you write posts in capital letters, you are displaying the very aggression you deny exists amongst the SNP.

If shouting at people online is your argument, it's a pretty poor one.

Gilly these are your words,

I remember visiting Perth (on the worst possible Saturday) and watching some small boats come up the river Tay when about 30 or more buses pulled up and hundreds of SNP “thugs” surrounded us . Unbeknownst to us there was a demo /march planned . We tried to escape to the city centre where it was 10 times worse. It was one of the most frightening days of my life.

NO ONE I SEE ON MARCHES IS USING THREATENING BEHAVIOUR OR LANGUAGE .

* Gilly * I was at that march and many other s in our cities and I can assure you we ..and Independence is cross party ..are NOT THUGS .If you find people peacefully marching singing as they go a threat then you must be very easily threatened .As I said amongst my friends who march alongside me are doctors ,lawyers ,teachers and nurses,fireand police personnel and every other occupation there is .Many of us have good businesses ,great careers and one that I see on marches is using threatening behaviour OR language .It is easy to find police figures that will tell you our marches are well policed by ourselves and there is NEVER trouble except for the unionists who come to taunt and verbally abuse us.ONE arrest with NO charge of a marcher in Edinburgh ..he was harrassed by a yoon and retaliated ...which he shouldn't have but he was only doing what anyone would have under the circumstances.There were tens of thousands at that march ...ONE arrest

In response to Chucky (whose figures are 2 years old i.e. BB (Before Brexit) Try this from Today's National:

"THE SNP’s depute leader has labelled this the week when Scottish independence became inevitable. Keith Brown said the momentum had become unstoppable after the “unstable, undemocratic” Westminster’s handling of Brexit over the past few days. He argued that the UK political establishment’s failure to deal with the chaos made it clear why Scotland should make its own decisions.

It comes after several major poll boosts for the Yes movement over the past week. Research by Survation found that 60% of Scots want a second independence referendum. It also predicted that the Scottish Parliament would retain its pro-independence majority after the next Holyrood election.

Brown said: “This week may come to be seen as the moment that ensured momentum for Scottish independence became unstoppable.

“The events of the last few days have proved beyond question that Westminster isn’t working for Scotland – the complete meltdown over Brexit has shown that clearer than ever. “The UK Parliament is an unstable, undemocratic institution foisting an unwanted Brexit on Scotland.

Now more people would prefer independence over any kind of Brexit.

“Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU and our interests have been ignored at every turn.The SNP’s depute leader has labelled this the week when Scottish independence became inevitable.

Keith Brown said the momentum had become unstoppable after the “unstable, undemocratic” Westminster’s handling of Brexit over the past few days.

He argued that the UK political establishment’s failure to deal with the chaos made it clear why Scotland should make its own decisions.

“The UK Parliament is an unstable, undemocratic institution foisting an unwanted Brexit on Scotland. “No wonder that polls now show more people would prefer independence over any kind of Brexit.

“Scotland voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU and our interests have been ignored at every turn.

Paddyann “I truly do not understand ANY Scot who tinks it OK for our country to be run...and run badly by our neighbour.”
Okay, seeing you can’t understand it, let me explain things to you; everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I am a Scot and like the majority of the Scottish people (unlike the minority in your case) I do NOT want Scottish Independence! Obviously, people like yourself, decide that we are wrong and a disgrace to Scotland because we do not support your view, but we have had the referendum and resoundingly voted to remain part of the United Kingdom. There does not need to be another referendum, the Scottish people have already spoken and made their views clear!

Unfortunately for you the SNP is losing its support.
The facts are there for all to see.
In the 2017 election -
The SNP won 35 seats giving them 59.3% of the seats in Scotland despite only having 36.9% of the vote!!!
The Tories won only 13 seats, which was 22% of the seats available, despite having 28.6% of the vote
Labour won only 7 seats, a paltry 11.8 % of seats available, despite having 27.1% of the vote!
Basically the SNP had just over a third of the vote, which is significantly down (nearly a third) from the 2015 election, where they had reached their peak, before this slide. They lost 21 seats from the 2015 election and won 4 of their constituencies by less than 100 votes.
The vote share for them was down 13.1, whilst the vote share for the Conservatives was up 13.9 and Labours vote share was up 2.8.
The number of votes cast for the 3 main parties in 2017 against the 2015 election were -
SNP - 977,569 down 476,867 from 2015
Conservatives - 757,949 up 323,852 from 2015
Labour - 717,007 up 9,860.
This was despite the Conservative Manifesto being the worst in living memory! I suspect that this change in the vote was mainly due to the majority of Scottish people voting this way to show their opinion on independence! They do not want it and they do not want another referendum. These figures do not show a party in the ascendency, rather one which has had its peak and whose support is rapidly declining.

Anja You must be viewing Nicola Sturgeon through rose tinted glasses! As far as I, and many others are concerned, she is a self absorbed person, who is very full of her own importance! She is so fixated on Scottish Independence and Brexit, that she is failing to look after the needs of the Scottish people! I really do not know where you get your information that she is widely respected, she certainly isn’t over a majority of Scotland. There are huge numbers of people in Scotland who loath her and what she stands for! The best politician in Scotland is Ruth Davidson, the Scottish Conservative leader, who should perhaps run for the Westminster Parliament as she would make an excellent Prime Minister. However, having a small baby, born late last year, she probably has enough on her plate at the moment.

Thanks for the info Cherrytree I was surprised by it.

Gosh and even those were very close.

Scotland has 32 councils
Only 4 councils voted for independence.

Dundee city.
For 57.35% Against 42.65%

Glasgow For 53.49%
Against 46.51%

North Lanarkshire
For 51.07% Against 48.93%

West Dunbartonshire
For 53.96% Against 46.04%

gillybob I can completely identify with your experience. I really don't think the SNP fans realise how they appear to others.

But how could we have taken it seriously ‘before’ MaizieD when it was never pointed out to us at the time?

Lots of pre-referendum warnings about the Irish border on this thread.

twitter.com/BorderWarnings/status/1099013638189400064

I suppose the problem was that there was so much guff being spouted that it got lost in the general babble. Particularly as most of the MSM supported Brexit and weren't going to publish anything detrimental. And, of course, 'who needs experts?'

I can absolutely assure you paddyann that on that particular Saturday in Perth they were thugs of the worst kind . I felt VERY intimidated and frightened . I posted about it on this very forum after the event !

I did not say they were “all thugs” so please don’t put words in my mouth . I said they were thugs on that day in Perth !

I'm not sure any politicians care about anyone except themselves. That's why I am so disillusioned with politics nowadays.

Do you think Mrs May and ERG care much about anyone who lives in Scotland outside of Glasgow and Edinburgh - or indeed about G and E?

Nicola Sturgeon & the SNP want to turn the Central Belt into their own little fiefdom, a copycat Westminster. They don't care about anything or anyone outside Glasgow and Edinburgh. I live in the NE of Scotland and we in this area are treated appallingly by Holyrood. We receive the lowest funding for schools and the lowest grant to councils. The SNP constantly try to remove the services we do have, and have already taken away police and fire service control from us.

Hospital performances are now dire and school achievements have gone down the pan. They cannot recruit staff and so vacancies go unfilled. The latest wheeze is to give councils powers to introduce a workplace parking tax. That'll really encourage teachers and nurses to work in Scotland, while Sturgeon swans off to work in her chauffeur driven car.

I used to think Scotland was a great place to raise a family. I don't any more. Two of my adult children have gone off to London and the US to further their careers while my trainee medic child plans to move to England or abroad as soon as she can. None of them want to be a big fish in a small pond - rather like Alec Salmond, who as everyone knows preferred Westminster to Holyrood.

I have great admiration for Nicola Sturgeon. She speaks well, addresses questions directly and is well respected in Scotland.

Of course if your friends sympathise that’s nice as I certainly sympathise with the problems face by Macron and Trudeau, or I would if they weren’t of them own making and as for that Moron in the White House.......! ???

So we have a paradox. On the one hand, never has Scottish independence seemed so reasonable and desirable, and not just to the Scottish nationalist. On the other hand, never in the modern era has it seemed less viable; as well as declining oil revenues there is the problem of the hard/soft border with its neighbour and biggest market, England, should Scotland rejoin the EU after the UK leaves.

Nicola Sturgeon is a one-trick pony and is not as popular as her adherents would have you believe.I hear from friends in Canada, France and USA who sympathise with us in having a leader whose go-to position is to whinge and girn that it's all the fault of Westminster. And I also think our representatives in that place are an embarrassment.
Nicola is a very capable well respected leader of the SNP
If you say so paddyann ,and there's the rub.. Would that she was leader of the country!