Scottish Independence

But we are the EU. It's not them and us.
We helped produce the laws. We benefited hugely.
Scotland has had massive subsidies. We have benefited from EU workers in our hospitals, care homes, B&Bs, fisheries and farms.
Well, I thought so!

You're quite right Grammaretto, scotland has benefitted hugely from the EU coffers.

But we are the EU. It's not them and us.
We helped produce the laws. We benefited hugely.
Scotland has had massive subsidies. We have benefited from EU workers in our hospitals, care homes, B&Bs, fisheries and farms.
I loathe all this catty, spiteful, snarling at eachother whether on this forum or on others.
Sorry this is on the independence thread but I can't see that will help.

Thank you
The other question is
How much are Swiss bankers hiding on behalf of tax evaders?

Hang on in there Jalima; those who "talk to people in the EU all the time" will be along shortly to answer that for you.

Talking to people in EU all the time, they all say they would be prepared to invest heavily in Scotland- and tourism would boom and boom. Same for unitversities, research, inovation, etc, etc.
How long has the UK been in the EU?
We have paid well over £500b into the EU coffers so far - has the EU not invested any of that in Scotland yet?
If not, why not?

Not to mention the border guards who 'know' the family...including 'our jura' to quote that person's own words.

Your hyperbole is breathtaking Jura - all the time, they all say, invest heavily, boom and boom!! Your influence is immense! I’m surprised you have any time to post on GN!

It really undermines a serious discussion when someone just quotes b*****cks presented as facts. If indeed jura really is talking to people in EU all the time, I think we need to know who they are so that credence can be given to this statement.

^Do you know a lot of very influential people in the EU jura or is it just the man on the no 49 omnibus that tells you this?
Presumably Swiss bankers, who, last time I looked, were not part of the EU.

Chewbacca
My thoughts entirely. ???

Talking to people in EU all the time, they all say they would be prepared to invest heavily in Scotland- and tourism would boom and boom. Same for unitversities, research, inovation,
etc, etc.

Do you know a lot of very influential people in the EU jura or is it just the man on the no 49 omnibus that tells you this?

Pie in the sky!

Talking to people in EU all the time, they all say they would be prepared to invest heavily in Scotland- and tourism would boom and boom. Same for unitversities, research, inovation, etc, etc.

God help us too Paddyann! The sooner you pop on to the EU and use Scotland's resources on propping up their near bankrupt countries , while watching them take your fish, oil and anything else they can lay their hands on until they be bleed you dry, the better!

We all KNOW thats your opinion paddyann but unfortunately for you it's not one that's widely agreed on.

THE SCOTTISH REALITY

We will take your oil but we will give you all our nuclear weapons.

We will not allow you to vote on matters in England but we will retain the powers to vote and decide on all matters in Scotland whether devolved or otherwise if we deem it necessary.

Your politicians that you elect are there to be ignored and outvoted at any time we choose.

You will never ever be handed the major keys for economic growth but we will give you some limited powers that we can claim you operate but are all really controlled by our sole determination of the “block grant” which should really be described as a partial repayment of the revenues you send us.

You will continually be in debt because we retain the powers to spend on your behalf even when that expenditure brings Scotland no benefit as it is spent outwith your country with nothing acruing to Scotland in return.

We fully intend to drag you from the EU against your wishes doing irreparable damage to many of your businesses and destroying your export led economy and tourism.

We will insist throughout all the above processes that you are “Better Together” being governed by us although we must concede we seem to have lost the plot recently with quite open hostility to all things Scottish. This happens to a colony that forgets who the masters are.

Gonna do something about? Now is not the time, get back in your box.

.If this is your idea of "democracy"chucky then I am aghast.The oil industry is not in recession ,the WM government is still selling licenses for new fields .There is a vast amount of oil in the seas around Scotland to be harvested ,fields in the west that haven't even been started yet.The last figues I saw said over 100 years of oil in the KNOWN fields .Its not about oil though ,its about a country being run by the people who know it and understand how it works .We are largely much more left leaning than the rUK ,that is clearly seen in the SNP majority .The SNP who have helped the people who NEED it not their buddies who are millionaries/billionaires like the tories do.God help us all if we're tethered to WM for much longer !!

Really?
Not another referendum please.
General election perhaps but why all these horrible 50/50 votes that are so divisive.
And in the case of Brexit impossible to unwind.
I have friends in almost all the political parties and I also have friends who work in the Scottish oil industry and they tell me there is a recession. I believe them. One has already lost his job and gone to work in the Middle East.
When the ship is sinking, should we carry on infighting or help eachother to the life boats?
Though we may have to build life boats first.......

Thank you Granny23. That's roughly in line with what I'm hearing from previously undecided friends.

Some who were saying "Oh no, not another election or referendum" now think it might be the only way out of the current mess and there is a lot of resentment from Labour and SNP friends who think their MPs should not have to go against what their constituents voted for on Europe to make up numbers shortfall in the Tory ranks. (Many now think independence will come about naturally, eventually.)

I've also heard a few say independence -- with the probability of a Scotland-focussed Labour, SNP, LibDem or coalition government north of the Border -- has become a better option than being ruled from London by a shower of incompetent infighters who are prepared to change their own votes if they have a chance at Party leadership. Quite disgraceful.

Reported in The National

"STRIKING findings from a new poll have revealed the majority of Scots think the country will become independent – and believe there should be another referendum. It also found a significant number want to keep the pound after independence day.

In the survey of more than 2000 people who are “open-minded or undecided” on Scottish independence, 63% said they thought Scotland would become an independent country while 37% said they did not think it would happen.

Asked if they would vote for independence if they were convinced it would be good for the economy, 77% said they would, with just 5% saying they wouldn’t.

On currency after independence, 47% said Scotland should keep the pound in the long term, 23% thought the country should keep the pound in the short term before switching to a new Scottish currency when economic tests had been met, 14% were in favour of adopting the Euro and 6% wanted to switch to a Scottish currency in the short term.

The survey conducted by Survation for new polling and research organisation Progress Scotland found 61% thought there should be another referendum on Scottish independence with just 39% disagreeing.

However only 48% thought this would be likely within the next two years with 44% thinking it was unlikely. Asked if it was likely in the next five years, the majority (59%) said yes while 32% said it was unlikely.

Questioned on whether they thought independence would be good for the Scottish economy in the long run, 40% agreed, 17% disagreed, while nearly a third (30%) neither agreed nor disagreed and 12% said they didn’t know.

Regardless of which political party is in power, 74% said the Scottish Parliament/Government should have control over all decisions affecting people in Scotland with just 6% disagreeing. Progress Scotland has previously released findings that Brexit is now the most important issue determining views on an independence vote – up from 22% in 2014 to 43% today.

One fifth of respondents (21%) who voted in the 2014 Scottish referendum have changed how they would vote on Scottish independence or say they are not sure about how they would vote now."

And if Scottish constituents voted by a majority to remain in the EU, their local MP should vote accordingly? Aye right.

It doesn't feel like democracy when the MPs go against the majority wishes, I quite agree.

It also doesn't feel fair to be denied citizenship of a peaceful, friendly trade block which has been advantageous to the part of the country where I stay (and where more than 60% voted to remain).

At the end of the day, all problems here are being caused by difficulties in the Tory party (we would have crashed out by now if they had stayed unified over their own leader's deal) and the thought of MPs being forced to go through a fourth meaningless vote while the clock is ticking down to disaster .... no, indeed, I'm not happy with that.

Caledonail4 On a lighter note, I actually went to school with David Mundell. Didn’t like him then and certainly don’t like him now!

“I think if we can manage the Irish border we could manage the Scottish English border.” That has been a major issue and the reason the DUP have not been on board with leaving. No-one can’t find a suitable solution to the border, which would be even more difficult between Scotland and England!

You also say “why are MPs repeatedly being expected to change their minds and their votes when people in the UK are denied the same?” My answer to that is that people elect an MP to represent them and expect him/her to support their views! If a constituency voted to leave, their MP should respect their wishes and support leave, they should not ignore their constituents wishes for their own ones! I do think that a lot of MPs will get a shock when there is another General Referendum and may find themselves looking for employment elsewhere!

“Please don't get angry about someone expressing a political opinion.” Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and that is how it should be. As I have said many times I voted REMAIN in both the Scottish Independence and EU Elections! However, it is more important to me that Scotland remains part of the Union, than leaving or staying in the EU! It is even more important that the democratic result of both these elections is binding as we are just that, a “democracy!”
If the result of the Scottish Independence referendum was to leave the Union, would you be happy that the results were not followed through on? Would you be angry that the democratic result was not accepted? Would you want there to be another referendum a couple of years later to see if there would still be the same result? If the result was different, how would you feel? Would you be angry that the original result had been dismissed? Would you want a 3rd referendum?

I think if we can manage the Irish border we could manage the Scottish English border.

Please don't get angry about someone expressing a political opinion. I'm not angry about yours...just puzzled and sad. Oh, and a wee bit worried that any leaver is angry at present as you are very successfully and messily dragging Scotland out of the EU one way or the other.

On a much lighter note, it was amusing to hear the Scottish Secretary David Mundell on Radio Scotland this morning urging the SNP and Labour to "stop politicking" and get behind Mrs May's deal. Hmm.

Why would either party support a deal they don't want just to help Mrs May in the numbers game against her own ERG and the DUP?

And why are MPs repeatedly being expected to change their minds and their votes when people in the UK are denied the same?

*meant to say into pounds from Euros.

Caledonail4 “I had a lump in my throat watching this.

www.thenational.scot/news/17530456.watch-snp-mep-tells-eu-to-leave-a-light-on-for-scotland-to-find-our-way-home”

I had a lump in my throat too, choking with anger!!

So home to Scotland is the EU!!!
I voted to remain, but I’m bloody sure the EU is not home to this Scottish family!!!

I am not a rampant Tory, I’m actually someone who used to want Scottish Independence, but that’s what I wanted, INDEPENDENCE. Having matured I now see that the UK is stronger together.
This current push to be independent from England, Wales and Northern Ireland sickens me!! You don’t want to be part of that family, but want to be in bed with Bulgaria, Latvia, Slovakia etc!! This is the “new” Family you want? Honestly, is that what you really want, a home with these countries?
The SNP says Scotland is a wealthy country, who can manage without the rest of the U.K.!! However, you’re willing to share this “wealth” with a hoard of other countries who really don’t give a shit about us!

Can I also point out that of the main issues about Brexit has been the Irish border! Have any of you considered the Scotland/England border, which would have to be a hard border if we were in the EU without the rest of the UK, as it would be an external EU border?

I don’t want to have to have a passport or to have to change my money into Euro’s, to cross the border to visit my English and Welsh families.