Scottish Independence

POGs, the Scottish parties cannot call a referendum without Westminster approval and the SNP's long stated case has been to abide by the previous referendum result unless Scotland was dragged unwillingly out of the EU (this stated before we even knew what our response to Brexit would be), but they are clever enough to realise the time is not in the middle of a crisis such as this.

As has been said here many times, one of the very persuasive arguments by the "no" campaign (indyref) was that independence would mean we had to leave the EU and (oh, the irony) would then have a very-difficult-to-manage land border between Scotland and England which would still be part of the EU in one of the most powerful positions for negotiating anything.

What many people forget is that all main Scottish parties and their leaders campaigned to stay in the EU. It makes no sense for Scotland to commit economic suicide in this way...I mean the Brexit we are about to have foisted upon us.

Many forget that independence would then give all parties (including the Tories, lord help us) an equal chance at governing Scotland, but with the added advantage of our proportional representation system which makes the political balance a lot fairer and means everyone has a voice at some level.

To those who say we hate the English I would say, sadly, there are still a very few idiotic dinosaurs who dislike "otherness" because of race, sexuality, religion, accents, origin or the colour of their hair. Utterly daft but it happens everywhere. I've never seen it on Gransnet, I'm glad to say.

Personally, I have found that people from all countries have enriched this area in ways we couldn't have imagined and our English friends have brought so much in the way of ideas and new thinking, particularly if they have experienced city life in a way we haven't, but I'm well aware that there are parts of Scotland where the colour of your football shirt can cause animosity. Equally daft and we will have to grow out of that one pretty quick if we are ever to sit at a table with the EU grown ups.

I'm proud that I live in a country currently led by a party which has consistently shown leadership, clarity, unanimity and common sense on Brexit which is such a threat to our economy, employment chances, rights, future and freedoms.

And the above has only become obvious to this individual Scot since the Tories determined to jump off a cliff without so much as a balloon in their hands, while Labour can't decide whether to call the Coastguard or just cover their eyes and cross their fingers.

Time for rhetoric to put into practice?

But the Scottish Government DID ask Westminster to agree to a 2nd Referendum and TM said "Now is not the Time' = end of story and as the rules ARE applied to us lesser mortals, no chance of raising the same proposal during the rest of this Parliament. (although other avenues are available)

If as the SNP state the EU Referendum, indeed Referendums in general are NOT MANDATORY but merely advisory why doesn't Sturgeon and the SNP use that to set a date for another Referendum? They say Scotland ' WILL' vote for Independence and that is what the people want so why not put their money where their mouth is.

Why hasn't Sturgeon and the SNP made attempts to make Referendums mandatory to stop the never ending cycle of using it as an excuse not to abide by the outcome when it doesn't suit. That applies to the Scottish Independence Referendum and the EU Referendum which are linked.

Would Scotland want a complete break from the rest of the UK, a soft Scexit or a hard Scexit, if of course the UK has left the EU with No Deal?

Time for rhetoric to put into practice?

Good point Jura2 and a good comparison - trying to get legislation through a hostile Parliament, relying on the Goodwill of others to make your case for you where your own voice is not heard. This week's episode of Victoria focussed on the attempts to get the vote for working men, which led to riots/arson/violence cf Irish Independence.

Thankfully, the campaign for Scottish Independence has been notable for its determination to campaign by peaceful, lawful means.

Yes, men said that about the votes for women suffrage too.

No wonder its called a neverendum by the long suffering Scottish public.

5 years ago, the situation was very different.

GG said "We in England cannot do it for you.' This is true but the UK Parliament can deny Scotland's wish as agreed by its duly elected Parliament to hold another referendum.

"Now is not the Time" said Theresa May and that was that. Wish she had said the same to David Cameron!

Was this not before Brexit- and therefore before the situation changed drastically and before Scotland was totally ignored during the whole process? Democracy does allow people to change their mind when circumstances change.
Even David Davis agrees.

We've already had a referendum. Our wish to remain part of UK was crystal clear!

Granny23
You are making big differences between English and Scottish. Not people. Not UK residents. English and Scottish.
Some English people make your blood boil.
Some Scottish people may make the blood boil in some English people but we have a choice.
Either you (the population of Scotland, not you personally) garner enough votes to leave and do your own thing or, if that's not on the cards, Scotland will just have to bite the proverbial bullet.
We in England cannot do it for you.
When I was about 20, I remember a middle aged couple getting worked over in Matthew Street by 3 Scottish men. Their reason? They hated the English accent.
Granted, they'd had a few sherberts but the antagonism was there and it's never really gone away.
Very likely there are views which paint the reverse.
I hope you get your wish. Then you'll be the architects of your own futures.

GG ^If you can talk about being tolerant towards people with whom we have fewer things in common, why so antagonistic towards English people?
One gets shot down in flames on here for being racist but you show all the hallmarks in your comment.^

Pray can you show me where in my remarks on this Thread or indeed anywhere on Gransnet, facebook, etc. I have said anything which could be construed as Racist? I have never, ever, in all my long life been branded as such before by anyone and take that to be the grossest insult you could have laid at my door.

Also, I have no antagonism towards English People in general, only those who appear to believe that Scots are inferior, as I stated above

Once in a generation Gabriella

Not another one!

I wrote many not all
There seems to be a lot of dissent.
Perhaps Scotland needs a referendum on the matter and I feel it's only fair for them to have their say.
That way, there can be no denying the will of the majority and, if it's a majority vote to stay within the UK, then no-one can deny that it was a fair vote.

Gabriella be assured that we don't all want to leave the UK nor do we all hate the English!

Granny23
No I do not consider the UK and England to be one and the same.
I'm as clued up as any on here about where the borders lie nor do I state that all the oil and distillery workers are English.
I asked the question as to how Scotland would manage IF English workers decided (for whatever reasons) to move back to the UK, after all, they might be working under different terms which might not suit either party.
I'm behind your move to separating from the rest of the UK and, as before, I wish you all the best.
You want to leave and we don't need you.

One thing does stand out and here's where I can't square the circle.
It's about integration and getting on with those who share this planet.
Many people say that they're all for being inclusive. Equality. All colours, all nationalities, all faiths, all genders yet, Many Scottish people hate the English - their nearest neighbours.
It's been going on for generations.
If you can talk about being tolerant towards people with whom we have fewer things in common, why so antagonistic towards English people?
One gets shot down in flames on here for being racist but you show all the hallmarks in your comment.

You're very out-of-date with the oil & gas sector, Granny. Offshore wages are no longer very high or even high, compared to before the oil price slump. Non-UK workers didn't earn the high wages that UK workers got, which was a bone of contention and they were never a big proportion anyway.

Many, many workers came from England, esp the NE, when my Dh was offshore, probably more than 50% were from south of the border. Anyone travelling on the Aberdeen to London trains on crew change day would bear witness to that.

Granny23, do you feel that the Scottish and the English and Welsh are one and the same culture, as stated above?

Gabriella It is obvious from your remarks that you consider the UK and England to be one and the same. Scottish Tax Payers (and Welsh & NI ones) pay their taxes into the same pot at the UK Treasury as English People. Granted the taxes paid by Scottish Residents are only approximately 10% of the total UK tax take but it is worth noting that the average Scot pays more tax per head than the average English person because average wages are higher in Scotland. Although the population of Scotland is around 9 or 10% of the UK total it is still larger than many successful smaller Independent Countries and as to land area Scotland comprises 1/3 of the UK. Where did you get the idea that our oil rigs are staffed by workers from England, who would all go home if we were Independent??? Can you not understand that having had an oil industry here for at least 2 generations that we have a plentiful supply of home grown and trained oil engineers here. Or that people come from all over the world to work on the rigs because of the very high wages??

I have never hated the English just viewed them as like next door neighbours, or cousins, with a few differences and much more in common with each other. However, some (and I stress only some) of the comments on this thread, which label the Scots as somehow inferior, too wee, too poor, too stupid to manage their own affairs without big brother England to bail us out and keep us right, make my Scottish blood boil.

Alsace-Lorraine is a very different history ;) ;)

of course Jane10 - I have said all along that I have never lived in Scotland, nor spent much time there. So yes, buses, trains and markets, etc - a great way to pick up vibes. And yet, I do wonder if the conversations in those places in Edinburgh would be the same as in Glasgow or other places?

To deny the differences in 'culture and history' of places like Wales and Scotland, or both Irelands for that matter- seems naïve. Of course we could talk about the Danelaw, and Essex and Wessex, etc, etc - but I do think it is different, somehow.

Not arguing- this is an interesting discussion.

BTW. I hope that Scotland would recall Lorraine after they gain independence. I'd even pay her train fare...1st class.

paddyann
I was talking about England having total autonomy rather than being part of the EU and subject to various of it's diktats.

paddyann
I 'hear' what you say but what would you do for protection in the case of a terrorist strike or the upkeep of your railway infrastructure or your fees for academies/universities.
You don't have the population numbers to sustain all that via their taxes.
How about staffing on rigs and in distilleries? If all the English working in those sectors decided to leave, could you manage?
If you and your friends are so sure that you'd be better off and you wouldn't come cap-in-hand to England if it didn't turn out for the best (and don't forget that you'd have to make payments to the EU just as the UK does for all of us now) then I wish you the very best of luck and stand behind you all the way.
We don't want an attachment that is all one way.
You take back your MPs and declare your rights over anything made in your country and we'll stop selling our cheeses, Cornish pasties, and coco-pops to you. Fair do's.
I'll vote for anything that gets you out of our hair. It's a long running grumble.

Scotland doesn't have a very different culture from England any more than Wales does or the various other regions. The North, SW, SE etc all have their dialectal differences but are all united by the common language : English.
Historical allusions are only that - historic. To find out what modern Scotland is like jura come here and sit on buses, listen to people chatting in queues, at school gates etc etc. Could be eye opening for you!