Public school

trisher I agree that private and public schools should be stripped of their charity status. I would also ban faith schools beit Catholic, Jewish, Muslim or whatever.

No-one in my family has been educated privately, but we have had the benefit of good state schools, including comprehensive and grammar schools.
My opinion of private schools, that is, fee-paying but without entrance exams, is that they promote the mediocre, who certainly would not achieve in the larger, mixed-ability classes of the state system. This explains why so many privately educated children appear to achieve at school but fail to continue their progress in the wider world.
Public schools have a far more rigorous and intellectual approach, plus the ability to expel with impunity those who don't fit the mould.

My youngest son went through the private sector from when he was 3.5yrs because it was cheaper to send him there than pay for a nursery full time,it was at a time when mortgage rates where very high and I needed to work full time.
The classes where small and he received such a good education and made good friends that we kept him there until he was 11,he went on to pass 11+ and grammer school,if I didn't need to have returned to work he would have gone through the state system and gone to school at 5 yrs that early 18mths made all the different to him and us financially. You do what is best for your child and your family imo.

lemongrove and Day6
The Headmistress of my Gels' High School would be shuddering at my choice of language!

Good post Jura. (Thu 21-Mar-19 21:21:15)

I agree but years ago there were "barge pole" schools in the UK and teacher friends tell me so many comprehensive schools are deemed to be failing and have to go into 'special measures' in order to improve. My friend's son became a teacher (secondary school and he taught Maths) at the age of 22. Now 29 he has left the profession "for the sake of his sanity". He said he was basically running a three ring circus and expectations were unrealistic. Bad behaviour was rife. That must impact on all pupils.

I expect most of us were taught in the days when fear of punishment ensured we didn't misbehave. I imagine an orderly classroom aids learning. That seems to be a thing of the past in many schools.

I think the aim of giving every child a good education is as it should be, but it seems a bit of a lottery now, depending on a school's catchment area. There are some schools near us that are over-subscribed because they have such a good reputation and get good results.

I also agree that there is more to education than examination passes. Despite my comprehensive school background I had a wonderful education and excellent teachers who inspired us to read widely and listen to all forms of music, to sing, to paint and draw, to cook, play lacrosse and tennis, and to study Chaucer, Shakespeare and Larkin. Maths didn't inspire me but I still got the basics and ended up with a decent O Level grade. I remember thinking my children didn't get such a rich education at their state schools but they have all graduated and done well for themselves. I really do think nurture plays a part as well. You have to encourage children to learn, especially today as they have so many distractions -in the form of screens and on line diversions.

It's a different world and I imagine today's children will have different skill sets to the ones we may have.

Unless of course you want to level everyone to the same income level so that we all have the same? So shop assistants, teachers, manual workers, doctors, cleaners etc all have exactly the same income? Now that would be true equality wouldn't it?

Exactly, Chewbacca
A levelling out of incomes would never work, would it. If we knew our income would be the same as a road sweepers, or a shop assistant's why would anyone strive to get professional qualifications? There would be a shortage of doctors, dentists, architects, solicitors, vets, teachers etc, etc, etc if we all earned the same amount of money. In life some rise to the top because of talent, some because of hard work and some because of privilege. That's life.

If you are from a working class background the only way to better yourself is to get a decent education and/or to work hard and I think most people (of our generation) born with very little appreciate this from an early age.

Day 6 you have been seduced by the idea that the only reason for doing a particular career is monetary gain. It is the capitalist best means of dividing people. Actually many people in medicine and teaching do it for very complicated reasons. among which are a sense of duty , service and dedication. The salary whan I started teaching wasn't particularly good but it was seen as a vocation and in society's best interests. Personal gain isn't the be-all and end -all of everyone's life.

Lots of overqualified people choose jobs with less status and responsibility and lots of people cleaning toilets for a living have degrees.

Could it be that those in the higher echelons are there because they are more talented and have had a more rigorous education?
As Day6 says, in many state schools today, more time is spent in trying to control the pupils than in actually teaching them. It's a sad state of affairs that those who do want to learn are unable to progress because of the appalling behaviour of others.
This wouldn't be tolerated in a fee-paying school. The other point is that most secondary independent schools do have an entrance exam, so a standard has to be achieved before they are offered a place. It's not just a case of these schools being open to anyone whose parents can pay - it is probably dependent on IQ as well, which is why, with so few grammar schools around these days, this could prove your point, Lily65, that those whose parents can afford an independent school education will be the ones who 'rise to the top' whereas many at the top in public life in the previous century had been educated in grammar schools.

Until today's state schools are allowed to get a grip on discipline, streaming etc, there will be no improvement.

Sensible posts Day6


JenniferEccles I believe it is called inverted snobbery.
I believe that that is true.

Lots of overqualified people choose jobs with less status and responsibility and lots of people cleaning toilets for a living have degrees.
Do you have links to prove that assertion Lily?

I do know that there was a refuse collector (known as a dustman in years gone by) in Cardiff, who had a PhD. He enjoyed the job apparently. Sorry, I do not have a link.

Where on earth did this theory that there ever were "lots of people from grammar schools" at the top of public life come from? It's simply untrue, of the last 20 PMs only 6 have been to grammar schools.

There is nothing wrong with large incomes- but not to an obsene extent- or larger house, or better cars- or champagne, etc, etc.

But as long as all have enough to eat and good drinking water, a decent place to live in, good basic healthcare (not talking boob jobs) and a good education.

DD1 is a partner in an excellent City firm- only 3 women, and until recently the only one who did not go to a top Public or top private school.

Until today's schools are properly funded, respected and supported, with acceptable class sizes and proper support for those with special needs. It can be done- it is a choice, a political choice, that some countries have made- because long-term a fair society works so much better, and is, in the long-term, much cheaper, in 100s of ways.

I know some kids who Board at Public School with their horses too ;)

I agree, jura - all pupils deserve the best chances and I do not think that some children are getting the best chance of a decent education because of the disruptive element in many schools.

I know some kids who Board at Public School with their horses too
Have horse, will travel!

It's simply untrue, of the last 20 PMs only 6 have been to grammar schools.
trisher but is was more true in the last century, and for those in other professions too.
Now an actor is more likely to make it because of nepotism.

trisher from 1964 right up to the present day, with two exceptions (one Labour, Blair, and one Tory, Cameron) all PMs have been educated in the state system, mainly at grammar schools.

Prior to 1964 PMS were, in the main, educated at independent schools.
The heyday of the state-funded grammar school was 1940s to 1960s - is that reflected in the steady stream of state-educated PMs?

Today, although Mrs May was grammar school educated, the trend seems to have gone into reverse.

Of course I don't have a link that provides evidence that well qualified people take lower paid jobs. I can give you details of head teacher turned TA, nurse turned gardener and lawyer turned vicar if thats of any interest?

I could provide a few anecdotes of people choosing less stressful jobs too!
lots of people cleaning toilets for a living have degrees.
It was that that made me , I wondered if you have done a survey!

I remember the toilet cleaner in, I think, Weston, whose toilets were the best in the country, don't think she had a degree though.

Grandma 70s

Surely it is partly your fault that your children did not get the benefit of cultural activities. I am the eldest of 4 whose parents were aged 21 when I was born so not much money around. But, starting at a young age we were taken to circuses, pantomimes, the cinema and visits to the occasional stately home or a museum. My grandmother took me to see the Festival Ballet when I was 10 and to all the London museums, Hampton Court and Windsor Castle. I remember eating our sandwiches on a bench on the top floor of the Science Museum underneath the planes suspended from the ceiling. We all read a lot. This grounding stood me in good stead and I still enjoy all those activities, apart from circuses, obviously.

I am constantly surprised at the number of parents who don't do such activities with their children. I am aware that many parents do take their children to galleries etc and have been driven mad on occasion trying to see an exhibit and not being able to get close because of the numbers of children sprawled on the floor drawing.

When I was at grammar school we had regular outings - once a school train to Stratford (I forget which play) and Marlowe's Edward 11 in London when in the sixth form. There were also visits to the school by theatre and music groups - any one remember Amahl and the Night Visitors
or the Dolmetsch Family of recorder fame?

The money for schools to participate in such activities is no longer available but there are still events around which cost little or nothing.

One final thing, make sure that your children's writing skills are good. In the 80s I worked in a specialist department in one of the top 3 firms of accountants. When we needed trainees we advertised rather than going directly to universities. The responses would be in the 100s and one of my tasks was to go through all the applications and weed out all those whose covering letters said either 'Dear Sir......Yours sincerely' or 'Dear Miss Smith....Yours faithfully' Sounds harsh but it was a way of reducing the numbers.

As regards the all-jobs-paid-the-same idea, I remeber having this discussion many years ago with a doctor colleague, who also said there would be no incentive to do his job; but IMO I would far rather be a doctor than, for example, a toilet cleaner, and in the end, by paying people vastly different amounts, we are saying that one person's time is valued as less important than that of another person, which I feel is totally unfair.

Well-paid jobs which require higher qualifications are dependent on intellectual ability, and it's very much a matter of luck (and genes) whether you are lucky enough to be born with that.

Dinahmo I occasionally take my 3 older grandchildren to the theatre which they love . I would like to take them more often but the prices are crazy and way out of the reach of many ordinary working people ! For those of you living in /around Londonia it’s great that you can take advantage of the wonderful
Museums and galleries but it would cost someone like me ( in the NE) several £100’s just to get there .
It’s all about having/ not having money isn’t it?

Interestingly enough if you trace Rees Mogg's family back not all of them were rich and privileged. The Rees in the name came from a Welsh cleric who married into the Mogg family in 1805. The Mogg family had been Somerset business people and landowners going back to the 13th Century. Regarding coal mines the main owners in Radstock were the Waldegraves and in Midsomer Norton the Duchy of Cornwall. The Rees Moggs bought into smaller mines in the area including Welton which went bust shortly afterwards in the late 19th Century.

Midsomer Norton and Radstock were poor mining towns but with the cost of housing in Bath are now popular affordable places to live and are improving all the time.

What a cheek! If he wants to attack people who went to public school then Rees Mogg is not the only one. Lots of conservatives went to public school and the old school network still exists today but is gradually being broken down.

I won a place to grammar school but you can no longer do that. The state system is such that more and more "ordinary" people are sending their children to private schools. They are recognising the benefits of a good education which the wealthy and privileged have had for years.

Gillybob

In the fifties we lived in Dorset - my father sold insurance in the evenings and my mother worked as a night nurse and we lived in a council so we didn't have a lot of money.

I haven't lived in London since the mid eighties and lived in Suffolk for nearly thirty years before moving to France.
During the last few years of our life in London we could afford to sit in the Grand Tier at Covent Garden. After moving to Suffolk at times we had a lot less disposable income but were able to stand at the back of the stalls at Covent Garden for about £6 each and train travel was cheap out of hours. At that time seats at the back of the stalls cost about £75 each for ballet and rather more for opera. We sometimes took sandwiches to eat on the train.

You don't have to travel to London for theatres as there are several in the north east plus museums, galleries etc. What about the live broadcasts, not only from Covent Garden but also from the National and other theatres. They aren't particularly expensive. Luckily there is a cinema near me in France where we can see the broadcasts from Covent Garden for 12 euros a seat - which are much more comfortable than CG.

If you do want to go to London you could always stay in a Youth Hostel. Friends of mine do so and there is one near St Paul's apparently. I gather that they are more civilized than they used to be

Do You know how much it costs to get me and my 3 grandchildren to/from London Dinahmo ? I’ll give it a miss, thank you . As you say We do have a few excellent museums and galleries here in the NE . The Theatre is expensive wherever you live.

Culture does not end at the boundary of the M25

Well-paid jobs which require higher qualifications are dependent on intellectual ability, and it's very much a matter of luck (and genes) whether you are lucky enough to be born with that.
humptydumpty well said.
No matter how hard some children may try they are never going to get A and A* grades - and all should be encouraged and not demeaned because of a lack of intellectual ability.