Public school

Private schools are like state schools, they can be good or bad. My children reached secondary age in the late 1980s, when standards in schools were appalling. My children's state primary school was criticised for being too academic and taking children on too far in their education.

DH and I were both state educated and expected our children to be as well, but with our DS's state school teachers telling us to send our son to private school if we possibly could, we did and as he went privately DD had to as well. When she transferred back into the state system at 16, going to a Further Education college, she was shaken to the core to discover how much further her education had taken her than if she had been in the state system. But that was the late 1980s.

The situation now has changed beyond measure and our DGC are at the local state secondary school and the quality of education they are getting is excellent.

Good or bad, and good results or not - the point is that they will much too often lead to privilege in so many ways due to the 'old boys' network'- which is so well illustrated currently with the ERG.

Heard recently 'oh, xyz' has not done half as well in his A'Levels- but it doesn't matter- we got him lined up in a big City Firm- makes no difference'

Jura, the idea that independent schools, other than the few, very top rank schools, give any leverage in the jobs market is an illusion.

Certainly, that didn't apply to DC's school, nor the schools attended by the children of friends (mostly armed forces, diplomatic and other parents with peripatetic careers, who sent their children to private boarding school to ensure they get a continuous education.).

Only those who, like me, went to 10 different primary schools in three different countries and would have had as peripatic a secondary education, appreciate how essential boarding school was to me getting any education at all. Of course, if the state provided boarding schools for children like this, for whom it is essential, demand in the private sector was full.

The career decisions made by friend's children, often to join the armed forces, like their parents, or to become engineers, transalators, archaeologists, academics, music teachers, farmers, to name but a few, were neither influenced nor guided, by the non-existent advantages offered by 'the old school tie', nor do I think that any of the careers I mentioned are of the kind where who you went to school is remotely relevant.

was full should read: would fall

Monica, I was talking, with knowledge and personal experience, not of 'private' schools - but the so called 'Public Ones'.

I taught in a State Boarding School for many years, so I am fully aware of the need for the children of parents in forces, etc.

jura I cannot find the post where you made it clear that when condemning private schools and the old school tie system, you referred only to premier division schools.

Your last but one post referred explicitly to my post immediately above it - and that referred quite clearly to the run of the mill local private school.

I, too was talking with knowledge and personal experience - and at some time in the past DS's school was described as 'public school', but a minor public school.

The simple fact is: that while a small group of elite schools do have these old school tie networks, the vast majority don't.

Jura I think that nepotism is alive and well among those who went to state schools too.

yes Monica- the two have been getting mixed up throughout this thread.

Agreed PamelaJ1- but not to the same extent.

We all do it. When DS was looking for 2 weeks work experience as part of his schools 'ready for work' programme. I rang up someone I knew, working in the same field.

Nothing to do old school ties, state schools, just the personal networks that keep people informed about jobs at every level. How many 'water cooler' chats at work include information about which jobs may be coming up soon, who is leaving, where there is going to be a re-organisation. This informal information gathering is part of the fabric of day to day life.

Networking is widespread in all walks of life.

I have to say I can see no "old school tie" benefits for minor public schools but when you look at the elite public schools I'm sure it's still in evidence.

Exactly NotSpagetti - we are talking about something totally different here. Very evident in Politics and the ERG. Denying this seems naïve, really.

No ones denying it, it is just people write of it as if it didn't happen elsewhere.

DH lost a key promotion many years ago because a very senior manager, not even in his department, had a protegee he needed to advance up to the grade of the post DH was due to start the following day, so he was superceded. That strikes me as every bit as heinous as anyone shaking the old school tie.

Manager and protegee could not have been using the old school tie. They were all engineers.

Jura

You keep referring to the ERG and the old boys network but do you have an answer to your point made on another thread that I asked again on this similar thread. See my post to you Sunday 10.28.

You have posted re public schools :-

" As for teachers in private schools being 'better' - overall I can say 'no' categorically. All the teachers I know who taught in the private system were there for an easy life, or because they found they didn't have the discipline to cope. Some of the ones I knew we kicked out for being very poor teachers- and all ended up in private schools. There are some exceptions, but ...
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If the standard of teaching at Public School is in your opinion presumably poor for the reasons you gave what lies behind sending children to Public School if it is not to obtain a better education.

You mention the ERG ( Tories) in a manner that chimes with the OP link to the article by John Harris in the Guardian and you give the distinct impression you dislike the old boys network/nepotism so I am confused where you actually stand.

I equally get confused with the Champagne / Socialists, the Bollinger / Bolshoviks as they are commenly known who point the figure at one group whilst perversely practising the same within their own family/social group.

As a general point so many times people who jump on the bandwagon of telling others how and where their children should be educated and want to do away with Grammer schools, Independent / Public Schools have perversely been educated in either a Grammer/Independent/Public School themselves and admit it served them well and guess what, their own children need not do as they tell others. That is why the chant of hypocrite is so apt on occasion.

Not ignoring you, no time to respond properly now. This thread has got far too mixed up- and we should all have stuck to the initial question - re the power still retained by the Old Boy's Network via Public Schools.

I come from a country where you could count private schools on 2 hands- and where practically no-one went to one- and in fact, going to private school indicating failure. The numbers of such schools has risen- but they are mainly for the kids of British and American expats- and in very specific parts of the country, eg Zurich and Geneva. and of course NO Public Schools.

I come from a country where you could count private schools on 2 hands- and where practically no-one went to one- and in fact, going to private school indicating failure. The numbers of such schools has risen- but they are mainly for the kids of British and American expats- and in very specific parts of the country, eg Zurich and Geneva. and of course NO Public Schools.
Forgive me jura but I thought that you were referring to British education in your posts on this thread.

Besides which, I thought that you had taught in the state sector in the UK for all your working life so had some knowledge of both?

jura

" This thread has got far too mixed up- and we should all have stuck to the initial question - re the power still retained by the Old Boy's Network via Public Schools."
---

I have stuck to the initial questions raised in the OP.

As for you ' having no time' you have not responded to the question since I asked you on the 19th of March yet you have found time to make comments and statements in relation to the question to other posters or in general upto and including today.

Perhaps you have nothing to add, perhaps you nothing to say, perhaps you simply do not wish to engage but if it is a question of ' having the time' to respond then I look forward to hearing your response.

POGS haven't you noticed how few people on GN will answer awkward questions, even when they have set themselves up for them. They just ignore them and hope they will go away, they ignore them even if they don't go away and you keep repeating them.

POGS, your 'line of questionning' is very aggressive- and I truly do not have to answer. I am still waiting patiently for questions I've asked of many months, even years ago. But still.

As said, things have got all mixed up on this thread- the rights and wrongs of private education- and the disproportionate power still held by the 'Old Boys Network' of Public Schools.

My comments re teachers who choose to teach in private schools, or leave the state system to go and teach in private schools- is due to personal, but anectodal evidence in my 30+ years of teaching in state schools. Two of my very good friends, sadly one no longer with us now, were excellent teachers, but could not cope with classes of 30+ mixed classes- I never blamed them- and our friendship endured. Some teachers are not 'bad' teachers, but cannot cope with the reality of state education as it is in the UK at the moment. Another who left, and perhaps the worst case, was a very poor teacher who was unable to speak either French and German he taught- but got excellent results. my Head of Department- so I was really surprised how he got such results. He was found out by the Advisors- as he hid in toilets everytime they came to assess him in his lessons- and then when he, as Examiner of one of the exam board- gave worksheets 2 weeks before the exams to include all the vocab and points of grammar, etc, contained in the exam. One of the students was surprised when every single bit turned up in the exam and told her parents, who were senior teachers elsewhere. He was quietly booted out, and went straight to a Private School across the county. Many of the Teacher training I supervised and who had real discipline problems, went straight into the private system after their first year- because they would not have 'survived' in the state system. But I agree, that didn't make them necessarily 'bad' teachers.

Where do I stand on Public Schools? I think that they do give a very unfair advantage, and that they do have a disproportionate influence in Politics and many parts of the commercial sector, especially banking and finance, and even more so in the City. Many I know very well. Jealous, no- I wouldn't want to work and do what they do, at all. But the tax tricks and evasion, and the lack of concern for others who are not so fortunate, does hurt.

Champagne socialists hey? Well, our kids never went to private schools, let alone Public Schools. It was a clear choice. So don't point the finger at us. But I did have this conversation with teaching friends in Senior posts in State schools who sent their kids to private schools. Their stance was that they were prepared to spend their whole life working their guts out to help provide the best education possible in the state sector, for all kids - but that in the present climate of cuts and underfunding - they realised it was not really possible. They could have chosen to teach in private schools, but were totally dedicated to the state sector, for all, where they had to work much much harder. But at the end of the day- they did not want to sacrifice their kids to their principles. I respected and understood that. As for Champagne socialists- let's say, like Benn- would you have more respect for them if they said 'let's drink champagne and s*d the rest- who cares? Or say 'we know and acknowledge that we have been very very privileged and lucky - so we will do everything we can to change the system'. I know which I'll respect personally.

Not easy to reply to angry questionning like yours - because the next thing is, you will point and say 'ah, virtue signalling' - can't win.

Last but not least. One thing which is well understood by Northern countries, and to some extent, the one where I was educated- is that choices don't live in a vacuum. When people choose to send kids to the Private sector, or when people choose to use Private Health Care- it does have a knock-on effect on the state sector in 100s of ways.

Perhaps better illustrated with the Private Health sector- where most Consultants work for both the NHS and the Private Sector - and the mix becomes truly unbalanced and squewed (sp?). 'sorry Madam, you will have to wait 6 months to a year to have your hip done' - 'oh I can't wait, maybe I can sell my house and take out all my savings to have it done privately?' - 'fine, will do the pre-op on Monday and book you in for Tuesday'.

jura

Thank you for replying.

So your opinion stands that teaching standards in private education can be found wanting, you hate the old boys network/nepotism so the question was:-

"If the standard of teaching at Public School is in your opinion presumably poor for the reasons you gave what lies behind sending children to Public School if it is not for a better education?"

I know you did not send your children to a private/public school! Your posts state it is your grandchildren/nephews and nieces who attend ' top' public schools.

My point stands re Champagne Socialists who tell other parents how /where other parents should educate their children whilst being hypocrites themselves and sending their children to independent/private/public schools.

You mention Tony Benn. Benn like Abbott, Chakrobarti et al are hypocrites. So many politicians and commentators are too. Not only on education but on the subject of inheritance tax as well if my memory serves me well.

The only way to stop the Old boys network you dislike so much is to remove the Independent/Private/Public Schools from the educational system but I bet those who shout that should happen but don't practice what they preech would never let it happen.

So yes there is a certain amount of Virtue Signalling, glad you reminded me of that fact.

It is a fact that whilst you concentrate your ' ire', 'indignation' as usual on the ERG/Tories to condemn the Old Boys network/nepotism those factors are alive and kicking on the left of politics. It seems to me a ' principle is only a principle' if and when it is a case of ' do as I say not do as I do'.

I personally did as I say- as you yourself acknowledges- can't be responsible for family.

Personally, I don't agree, but I can totally see why people can say 'good education should be available for all, and I shall fight with all my might for this - but in the meantime will not sacrifice my children to my principles'. You may not agree- but it is an awful lot better than to say 'I'll do what I see as the best for my kids, and stuff the rest- I am not interested'. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Same with healtcare. Everyone should have access to excellent healthcare- but would you blame someone with a loved one stuck on a lengthy waiting list, in pain and at risk of condition getting much worse- deciding to pay to go private. Whilst at the same time writing to the Secretary of State, the PM, the local health trust, the local and national papers, saying 'this is wrong' and we should not have to make that choice. Or do you think they would be better to go private and say 'don't care if the NHS falls apart- as long as I can afford to bypass it'.

do as I say not do as I do

Exactly this POGS. Angela Rayner, Shadow Education Secretary; Debbie Abrahams, Shadow Secretary for Work & Pensions; Valerie Vaz, Shadow Leader of the House of Commons; Shami Chakrabarti; Diane Abbott, all sent/send their children to be privately educated.

Jeremy Corbyn; Diane Abbott; John McDonnell; Paul Flynn; Seamus Milne; have all attended good grammar schools, or sent their own children to them.

Hypocritical. They've benefited from selective schools but now want to pull the ladder up behind them.

jura.

I made my position known on those points / questions in another post :-

" It is not the business of others to decide if a parent wishes to pay for their child's education as it is nobodies business if other people wish to pay for private health. Besides which some parents I have no doubt are not necessarily stinking rich as is supposed.

It does not follow that education makes a person a decent human being nor does it follow education makes you a shallow, uncaring person as the journalist eludes to, in my opinion. His own snobbery seems to elude him.

I find the journalist in the OP link to the Guardian is typical of those who cannot see beyond class warfare as it forms the basis of their political views. Class and Wealth are nothing more than a weapon to hit somebody over the head with in most cases. "

Jalima, yes of course I was talking about the UK since 1970 - but clarified that I myself did not grow up in a country where the 'Public School, private, state sector' did not apply- unless one was not very bright.