"You cannot betray the six million people"

This is the present, Ug. These two charlatans are jockeying for position in the tory leadership race. Which was, incidentally, exactly what they were doing 3 years ago when they plumped for supporting Leave. They didn't particularly believe in Leave, just thought it would position them better. They didn't even think they'd 'win'.

The fact that you', and no doubt most Leavers, would like to brush it all under the carpet speaks volumes for your moral compass.

wow clever generalisation, love a sweeping silly statement

I thought Sovereignty was a big issue with leave voters.

I think Leave voters have as many versions of 'sovereignty' as they do of 'leave'. In this instance it appears to be the ability to do whatever you like with the rules.

that is all irrelevant history. move in to the present !!

Gove and Johnson have always said that they knew nothing about it despite the fact that they had key leadership roles and daily meetings with the group. Either they were aware of what was going on and condoned it, or, they had no idea. In either case it makes them unfit to run a country. Though, we already know, of course, that Johnson is unfit.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/30/gove-johnson-under-fire-vote-leave-fine-appeal-dropped

Exactly MaizieD, and as I said on the Article 50 thread, senior Cabinet Ministers were found guilty of breaking the law, appealed and now they have withdrawn their appeal. Who can believe that they don't have the funds? What tosh, it's because they know they're guilty as charged. Meanwhile the whistleblower who informed and was dismissed, remains sacked.

If they are not brought to book, that means that they are above the law. I thought Sovereignty was a big issue with leave voters.

The referendum was run badly by both sides but the results still stand.

There is a world of difference between 'badly run' and cheating with a bit of criminal activity thrown in.

And, while we're at it, maddyone try this document which explains how EU law is proposed, drafted and voted on.

ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-making-process/planning-and-proposing-law_en

The official EU campaign and the LibDems were fined were fined thousands by election watchdogs, from PoliticsHome

If, maddyone you were to read the actual Electoral Commission document I linked to, rather than Politics Home, you will find that being fined for breaches of the financial rules are surprisingly common and there are varying amounts in fines. (It's always best to go to an original source) . Even the tory party has been fined and several occasions fancy that! The difference is that most 'offenders' are not fined the maximum amount, nor are they reported to the police by the EC for further investigation.

Vote Leave have admitted their guilt, really, by dropping their request for a judicial review. Their excuse is that they haven't the money to pursue it; I'd have thought that the openhanded Mr Banks, he of the £8 million donation of money of doubtful provenance as to its source would have been more than pleased to pick up the tab if Vote Leave had had a realistic chance of winning...

Whataboutery doesn't work in this instance.

lemongrove
?

Joelsnan I think the answer is that calling the referendum results ‘corrupted’ and ‘manipulation of social media’ etc etc
Is the last gasp of disappointed Remain voters who cannot
Think of anything else to say.
The referendum was run badly by both sides but the results still stand.

The referendum was corrupted by foreign interference and illegal overspending and manipulation of social media.

The only reason it has not been nullified is because it was only advisory.p

Nonnie
ve. It appears you are not prepared to admit the wrong doing when it is right in front of you and thereby lessens the value of your opinions for me

If you had read my posts correctly you will find I have never dismissed the issues with Leave funding. My question has always been why wasn't the referendum declared null and void. I have reiterated this so many times throughout this thread that I am getting bored repeating it.
By giving links to show remain funding problems I show there are issues throughout, maybe some more than other, maybe some yet to be revealed.
Again, my question is when all remainers go on and on about fraud. Why wasnt the referendum declared null and void so we didnt have to go through this torture?

Dinamo So refreshing to read your post.

Dinahmo: The majority was around 1.4 million and this is really too small a number to be responsible for potentially destroying the lives and livlihoods of many.

Many of us say Amen to that.

The official EU campaign and the LibDems were fined were fined thousands by election watchdogs, from PoliticsHome.

When mentioning the 17.4 million you really should mention the 16.1 million (or whatever) who voted to remain. The majority was around 1.4 million and this is really too small a number to be responsible for potentially destroying the lives and livlihoods of many.

This is a collection of Electoral Commissions monthly reports on its casework and investigations up to this year. It shows that it's pretty easy to be fined by the EC, it happens to lots of parties, people and organisations. So, in itself, being fined is no big Shock Horror occurrence.

What is outstanding about the Vote Leave and Beleave (Darren Grimes) cases is that they attracted the maximum fines possible and were referred to the police. Which is not usual and indicates rather more criminality than the EC usually finds.

www.electoralcommission.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/151659/Cases-publication.pdf

(downloaded from the EC's own website)

joelsnan can't read the FT one because I am not a subscriber. I've never heard of the second one but it is only an article with no evidence. I had to Google Best for our Future because I had never heard of them but all I could find was a pdf from the Electoral Commission which listed donations. I have to admit I was surprised at how many different organisations there were for the referendum - 7 for Remain and 10 for leave. I can't see any suggestion that BFF did anything wrong though.

Of course I don't know it any of them are 'snowy white' but I do think you should refrain from trying to tar Remain with the same brush as Leave. It appears you are not prepared to admit the wrong doing when it is right in front of you and thereby lessens the value of your opinions for me.

Nonnie

amp.ft.com/content/2f91721d-9512-3c2a-9e0f-4453897183c8

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/order-order.com/2018/03/26/remain-
campaign-used-exactly-spending-tactics-vote-leave-far-worse/amp/

www.politicshome.com/news/uk/foreign-affairs/brexit/news/95175/fresh-fines-remain-campaigners-after-referendum-expenses

Neither are snowy white

joelsnan I think my crossed post will answer your question to Greta.

Greta
The same could be said for both sides, but because the Leave campaign had no reason to overturn the decision i suppose there was no need to grub around. At least they didnt use taxpayers money to further their cause.
Again, if the wrongdoing was bad enough why isnt the result being declared null and void as a result of fraudulent practice. Why are we enduring this circus if it could be solved legally?

The bougeoise are doing an interesting job by turning the proletariat on itself. We will probably all get put back in our box never to be heard again a sad time for democracy.

But Joelsnan clearly the evidence is 'viable'. It has been clearly stated several times that the reason for not doing anything about it in parliament is that the vote was legally only 'advisory'. I am not a lawyer but imagine that means there was nothing that could be done about it. It would have been impossible for anything to be done while there was still an appeal in progress so I don't understand why you think something could have been done 2 years ago.

I would not describe fraud as 'backroom fiddling' it is far worse than that because even if only 1 million people were fooled by it all then the referendum should be declared null and void by any moral standard.

What do you think the Remain campaign did that was illegal? I dislike this casting of aspersions without anything to back it up. If there is something to say please say it. There is evidence that Leave and its main backer committed serious offences so please supply the evidence that Remain did.

Joelsnan: ...why, if this is the case did the remain parliamentarians not use this to declare the referendum null and void two years ago.

I guess the leave campaign did not exactly shout it from the roof top: "FRAUDULENT ACTIVITY IN PROGRESS" was not displayed on any bus.

Nonnie
Re your 10.30 post:
If you read my thread again you will note I said 'viable' evidence.
I accept there was backroom fiddling by the leave campaign. My puzzlement is why, if this is the case did the remain parliamentarians not use this to declare the referendum null and void two years ago. Either the wrongdoing is not severe enough to sway the vote or the remain camp have something to hide which may be uncovered if this had been pursued, they have of course been pulled up about some of their spending and offshore donors.
If it was so bad this was the ideal tool to use to force another referendum...something odd.