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"You cannot betray the six million people"

(186 Posts)
Gonegirl Wed 27-Mar-19 11:42:33

Donald Tusk

Sounds like he hasn't accepted Brexit.

crystaltipps Wed 27-Mar-19 11:58:06

He can see what a divided country we are, led by a divided parliament, millions here won’t accept Brexit.

POGS Wed 27-Mar-19 12:45:59

Hmm Donald Tusks remark.

This morning the Parliament Channel was ' LIVE ' from Brussels. :-


I watched it as I usually do and I am glad I did as listening to the ' Horses mouth ' speak rather than pick up on points such as Tusks comment without hearing the whole session is enlightening.

I heard the MEP's, Tusk, Barnier and Verhofstadt speak and I was once ' again' so annoyed by some of the comments, bias and outright meddling in the UK Politics it reaffirmed my position that if there were another EU Referendum I would probably change my vote from Remain to Leave.

Donald Tusk was in my opinion disgraceful in his meddling, bias and I think he might have stoked the fire somewhat of the 17 million plus who voted Leave by dismissing their vote referring so overtly in favour of the I million who marched in London and by stating :-

'You cannot betray the six million people who signed a petition to revoke Article 50."

Mr Tusk you have dismissed once again the 17 million plus who voted Leave in a democratic vote in the UK.

Mr Tusk your behaviour and rhetoric once again was ill timed and showed your bias and constant belief by many in the UK the EU is doing /will do all it can to overturn the UK's EU Referendum result and the EU is politically meddling in UK politics.

If any poster has the time try if you can to watch today's Brussels session 'CONCLUSION OF THE EU COUNCIL' where the link in the OP comes from, it can be an eye opener as to the working of the EU.

Smileless2012 Wed 27-Mar-19 14:16:06

But it's OK to betray the 17.4 million who voted to leave; unbelievable.

kittylester Wed 27-Mar-19 14:19:58

I can see them making a second referendum a condition of any more 'concessions' they make such as a further extension

Cindersdad Wed 27-Mar-19 14:44:05

The E-petition is only indicative and relatively easy to cheat but it does show a strength of feeling which needs to be considered.

The 17.4 million voted out for many different reasons. Some have changed their minds and some have passed away. They did not vote for the deal on offer. 49 million did not vote to leave.

We now understand the implications some what better and for that reason alone a second referendum is more democratic than bullying through the 2016 result.

Joelsnan Wed 27-Mar-19 14:56:11

I think most of the 17.4 millions knew what they were voting for and should a referendum occur this figure will be greater.
Of the 49 million you say didnt vote leave. How many of those for sure would have voted remain, there is no way other than a rerun would confirm this.
Yes, some leave voters have died, so have some remain voters. Should we rerun elections at leadt twice to take account of deaths and 18th birthdays?
No one is bullying through the 2016, it was a democratically achieved result, those who voted leave still confirm that this is the best decision despite all the implications in the publuc domain. Is this a democratic country or what?

POGS Wed 27-Mar-19 16:55:10

Funny how on practically every Brexit related thread Remain voters know why Leave voters voted as they did.

Funny how the EU negotiators know how the UK voter voted as they did.

The session in Brussels today was no different to the many I have watched , stuff the 17 million Leave voters.

Today in the EU Parliament I heard the usual voices who were ' telling ' the UK voter /Parliament we ' should ' Revoke Article 50, we ' should ' stay in the Customs Union and Single Market there ' should ' be a chance for Reunification of Ireland etc.

All the while the hypocrisy of the likes of Tusk and Barnier who say they do not meddle in UK politics was as clear as a bell.

MaizieD Wed 27-Mar-19 22:18:52

I think most of the 17.4 millions knew what they were voting for and should a referendum occur this figure will be greater

That's impossible to know, as you say, *Joelsnan.

On the other hand, the whole 17.4 million who voted Leave no longer exist. A considerable number of voters have died since casting their votes and a considerable number of young people have come of voting age and are now registered. and you can take off the three Leave voters who I know who would now vote Remain Clinging to that 17.4 million is a failure to face reality. You cannot step into the same river twice...

As for a larger majority for Leave in another referendum; so long as it was properly and cleanly run, I think people would be happier to accept it. But the polls aren't telling us of any upsurge in Leave supporters.

Jalima1108 Wed 27-Mar-19 23:05:13

You cannot step into the same river twice...
Do I take it from that that you would disagree with holding another in/out referendum or with revoking Article 50 then MaizieD?

Urmstongran Wed 27-Mar-19 23:12:48

I say pass a motion to suspend the standing orders of the circus to sort it out with a pie fight.

MaizieD Thu 28-Mar-19 00:19:39

No, you don't, Jalima.

What I'm saying is that the electorate is no longer the same as that which voted on 23rd June 2016. Just as the river you step into a second time will have different water in it. It's no good Leavers saying that 17.4 million people will be furious if we don't leave (which they frequently do) because that particular number no longer exists. Some have died and some have changed their minds.

GabriellaG54 Thu 28-Mar-19 00:55:42

I think you've been at the sherry.
Your statement about 17.4m being fewer in number now than in 2016 due to huge numbers dying in the meantime and huge numbers of young people reaching voting age.

Have all remainers been allocated some magic elixir of life?
What is their secret?
Do tell me, are leavers dropping like flies?
You're making a very uneducated assumption that all young people who are now eligible to vote, would vote to stay in the EU.
That's a mighty brazen call.
Are no remain oldies dying?
Do you have pollsters at the cemetery gates who demand to know whether the deceased was a stayer or a goer?
Don't be so blooming ridiculous.
You cite instances and quote inaccurate facts at random to suit your purpose.
Tell me the number of deaths of those who voted leave in 2016 and tell me how many who voted remain, have since died.
While you have your economics hat on, tell me how many young people have attained the age of 18 since 2016 and would vote remain and the numbers for who would vote leave.
Concrete evidence please. Not links to someone elses words.

Lyndiloo Thu 28-Mar-19 02:15:03

Yes, many 'Leavers' have died since 2016, but so have many 'Remainers'.

There is a general belief that older people voted 'Leave' and younger people voted 'Remain'.

This is not FACT, it is only a BELIEF.

Your vote is anonymous. Your age and gender does not appear on your ballot paper. You are a number.

And nobody could ever convince me that there is an army of civil servants going through every, single, ballot paper to link-up the number to the age of the voter. That would take years!

A second referendum would be an insult to all UK voters - unless 'Remain' was not an option. We've already voted on that!

crystaltipps Thu 28-Mar-19 05:08:23

I still can’t undestand how holding another referendum on enhanced knowledge is deemed “undemocratic”. If Leavers believe their ideas are so evidently correct, the result should be a landslide in the favour of leave. Then there would be no further debate.

crystaltipps Thu 28-Mar-19 05:45:05

lindyloo demographics of voting behaviour have established that older people were more likely to vote leave, also linked to educational level and by region. Not a belief - fact. These are correlations not causation, so other variables also considered. You don’t have to ask every single person in a given population to determine a statistical variation. Can give you a link to the statistics and how they are established if you are doubtful.

Ginny42 Thu 28-Mar-19 07:34:13

There is a different dynamic now and people are far more clued up than before. Anyway it would only be advisory wouldn't it? Nothing to fear from knowing how the voters feel now. True democracy can accommodate people changing their minds.

yggdrasil Thu 28-Mar-19 07:53:28

POGS: Funny how on practically every Brexit related thread Remain voters know why Leave voters voted as they did.

I don't. I have never had a clear explanation from any Leaver, except re immigration. Otherwise they quote fake news from the media and get annoyed when you refer them to accurate data.

POGS Thu 28-Mar-19 08:07:08


Have you never commented on why Leavers voted as they did.?

You say you don't know but I voted Remain and 'some' Gransnet posters, journalists, commentators have ' told' me it was because they were uneducated, racist, xenophobic, from areas where they have nothing and voted against the government as a protest vote.

As a I voted Remain I wonder where I sit in the ' game' as I have RSA English and Typing but according to Remain voters that makes me superior, intelligent.

Kandinsky Thu 28-Mar-19 08:37:19

Couldn’t believe he actually said that.
But it’s ok to betray 17 million people.

And he’s the person we’re negotiating with hmm

jura2 Thu 28-Mar-19 08:48:35

Margaret Beckett will say it better than me Kandinsky- circumstances and promises made during the (fraudulent campaign full of lies) have changed totally- the only reason you don't want a confirmatory vote, is because you know so many people have changed their mind.

What are you scared of?

jura2 Thu 28-Mar-19 08:49:03

sodapop Thu 28-Mar-19 08:56:52

I agree with your points GG it would appear generally that no remainers died during this period, magic elixir indeed.

Kandinsky Thu 28-Mar-19 09:01:08


I haven’t once indicted which way I voted or whether I voted at all.
But, I’m very uncomfortable with the way remainers are trying to overturn the referendum result because it inconveniences them personally.
The referendum result was far more legitimate than a dubious online petition, yet remainers are holding up that petition as if it’s the word of god.
It’s all nonsense.
The referendum result must be respected for all our sakes.
How can we preach ‘democracy’ around the world when we overturn the wishes of our own people?
And no, rich remainers organising well orchestrated campaigns & marches to overturn a democratic decision - becomes they just don’t like it - is not democracy.

MaizieD Thu 28-Mar-19 09:06:15

I think you've been at the sherry.
Your statement about 17.4m being fewer in number now than in 2016 due to huge numbers dying in the meantime and huge numbers of young people reaching voting age.

I think you need to learn to read,*GG54*, as do all the posters who have supported you.

Would you like to post the bit in my posts where I explicitly state that the 17.4 is now fewer in number?