The Second World War and Great Britain - we were not alone

maizie Each was a bad as the other. The referendum has been held. There was a (tiny) majority for leave and I think that might well have been the same no matter how 'honest' the campaign was. Hearing the arguments most people gave for their vote, especially the leavers, these had nothing to do with the real issues at stake, nor even those raised by the protagionists, truthful or otherwise.

The referendum has been held we have a result. we must go for it. If we do not the effect on those who voted 'no' and find a second referendum or vote goes differently will make the rifts formed in the mining community by the 1984 strikes (which resonate still) look like a dolls tea party.

We will be come as ungovernable as Belgium or Northern Ireland with parliament suspended and no functioning government for years on end. Belgium managed 'only' 20 months. Northern Ireland has lasted 2 years 3 months and counting.

No thank you.

Monica My post was not aimed at you at all.
Exactly maddyone and Tuppnce .....but my guess is that it will drag drearily on.

Hear, hear maddyone
I cannot see what purpose it serves other than to provide more fodder for yet another “tit for tat” Leave/Remain bunfight.

As far as the "several European Countries " which would have been under the jackboot. Can I point out that many were under the jackboot and it was the bravery and sacrifice of the resistance movements in those countries that enabled the Allied troops to retake the country. Thousands of these resistance workers were communists and were tortured and killed. The reason we won was because people stood together.

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear! This thread has become quite unpleasant. I suggest we all agree to disagree and move on to a new thread.

Yes, and here is the massive irony. The Electoral Commission have said that clearly, the fraud committed (and there is still a lot which has not been published...) would have resulted in declaring the Referendum NIL and VOID - but that they cannot do that as the Referendum was, by our own Laws and Statute- ADVISORY only. Cameron, nor anyone, had the legal right to state it would be carried out.

P.S A referendum which, had it been mandatory rather than advisory, would have been declared void?

It was a democratic and free vote

So, MOnica, are you another person who is perfectly happy to call the result, of a referendum tainted by serious and proven illegality on the part of a Leave campaign, 'democratic'?

Lemongrove I have always accepted that we are leaving the EU. What is more I am opposed to any further referenda. It was a democratic and free vote and should not be subject to attempts to change it. I accept majority decisions when they go against me.

I did the above post to show that the same evidence can be used to support any side you choose. Tigerdove used it one way, I showed how it could be used the other way.

Time this thread becomes a casualty of war too, it was obvious it would be used this way ( to bash Brexit.)
We are leaving the EU, accept it, get over it.

Tigerdove, I was born during the war. We lived in south London, 'Bomb Alley'. We got the full brunt of the V1 and V2 campaigns and for years after I was terrified of planes - or anything flying overhead

My grandmother lived with us because her house was a direct hit in the Blitz in 1940. Our local primary school, Sandhurst Road, was hit by a bomb in 1943, killing 38 children and 6 teachers.

As a result of the war my mother never again slept well. She said that until then she had always slept well. My father was one of seven brothers, who with their father all served in WW2. 5 of my family fought in WW1, 4 died.

Britain was only able to stand alone (for a short time) because it had the sea around it, had there not been this moat, we would have been occupied as surely as Belgium and France. After that it was American money, and later, men that assured victory. and it was the allies that had the victory. I have just visited the Battlefield at Waterloo, another case where Europe in alliance, fought a tyrant.

I am, as I have always been, a dedicated Remainer

^No man is an island entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as any manner of thy friends or of thine
own were;^
John Donne

How many of you actually lived through ww2 I did. Do you think we enjoyed being bombed and not knowing whether we would live through another night. Rationing and going to school with gas masks. From 3 years to 9 I rarely saw an adult male as they were all in the forces fighting for the freedom that so many want to give away.

The sacrifice made by many families is being eroded by those who wish to stay in the EU, usually for their own personal gain, including many MPs. I can understand this but at least be more honest and admit it and not pretend it is for the benefit of all.

Nobody has mentioned that without Britain where would the Free French, Belgians and Norwegians had flown from and did they bring their own equipment and planes or did we provide them.

It should also be noted that without Britain and allies
several European countries would be under the ‘jackboot’. Unfortunately these countries no longer appreciate the sacrifices the men and women of Britain made for them.

Really? THE FIRST WORDS THAT THE GERMANS CHALLONCER SAID WAS I THOUGHT WE GOT THEM discussing brexit. Em I think not. What did the men and ladies fight for in both world wars to keep Germany out of Gb

Jalima: Using dead people to support a theory BY leavers - is the very point, but you are determined to distort the intention for your own theories.

And totally unacceptable language.

Message deleted by Gransnet. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Why wouldn't you acknowledge that and condemn people like Tommy Robinson?

Or that nice UKIP couple who wanted to see Sadiq Kahn hung and cut into pieces because he was wanting to ban the sale of bacon.. (A lie, BTW)

If you don't recognise racism and fascism when you encounter it then perhaps you need some sort of education. If there is racism and fascism then opposing it and condemning it would seem to me to be the least you can do. If refusing to accept the views of racists and fascists is being bigoted then I and many others are proud to be so. I'm with Will Self, the Leave vote has some very dodgy people behind it. Why wouldn't you acknowledge that and condemn people like Tommy Robinson?

Eglantine was my name in the Brownies btw- and I just love wild roses- especially the bright puce ones from the Alps - just as an aside.

Exactly, with many relatives and friend's relatives who served during the war, some from UK, some from Europe - and fil from South Africa- in the medical corps (he survived but was never the same) - I do find it offensive that the alt right is using their sacrifice to express their anti EU sentiments. I also find it offensive that the service and sacrifices of others from Europe, is not being recognised.

Eglantine, I am British, have been for 46 years, married to a Brit- lived all my adult life in the UK- even though I was born elsewhere. In retirement, we moved to Switzerland to look after my elderly parents in their hour of need- they lived through both wars. We are totally dependent on our UK pensions, and have every intention (well, had ... the current situation is fast changing our mind)- to return to UK.

Sorry, but I find the whole premise of this thread offensive.

Soirry, Jalima, but why do you find it offensive? I'm really at a loss to understand this.

The premise of the OP (or the gentleman who wrote the piece she posted) was a riposte to Leavers who seem to think that Britain won WW2 completely unaided.

I see the 'insult' in that being to our allies and their relatives who lost family members. Please tell me where you think I'm going wrong, here

GG I wouldn't want to insult you, I often read your posts and think you are a very welcome addition to GN

TerriBull sorry I totally missed the irony x

I'm sorry I wasn't being literal, just a bit of tongue in cheek irony, to illustrate how ludicrous it is making sweeping generalisations about any demographic. Quite acceptable it seems to do that about some, but definitely not others. Anyway, I apologise GG I don't actually think Essex is a Godforsaken place full of orange people anymore than I think Will Self is the oracle on who is a racist, or a bigot ". Bigot - definition a person who is intolerant to those holding different opinions" OMG! could that be Will himSelf Who'd have thought it. No one can't be a part of the metropolitan elite and a bigot, just not possible!

TerriBull - you do realise that you have just insulted every GN member in Essex............

YEAH I KNOW PADDY ANN IT ISN'T! but if one was eligible to vote, and couldn't be arsed, well kinda tough shit! My step daughter who works for a large publishing house in London, surrounded by yuppies living in the London bubble, tells me some don't believe there's a life worth living outside the M25, yeah you'd love them Paddyann definitely your people. Anyway, I'll get to the point, the day after the vote, she told me a couple of young members of staff came in grizzling "Did you cast your vote?" said my step daughter to the heartbroken snivellers...."well no" they blubbed.......... "Why not?" says she ...."because we thought, it wouldn't matter, we were sure the the remainers would win"...................aaaah so sad Hindsight is a wonderful thing and complacency can be so ruinous, they'll know what to do the next time.

"Will Self actually said he was certain all fascists and racists voted leave" I think that's what I said, but maybe I missed out the crucial "certain" Anyway intuition, without any actual evidence, from such an upstanding broadcaster/journalist is invaluable, yeah I'll go with Will's instincts, all racists voted leave.

I must agree the Tory MP did get crossed wires, he can't help it though he's from Essex and to make matters worse he's got a French name which is incongruous in those parts, where they think "Theydon Bois" is pronounced "Theydon Boys" Heavens keep well away, we have to visit from time to time as half my husband's family live there. A God forsaken place full of orange people. As the inimitable Matthew Parris is prone to say "it's all very sad, but best to ignore them" or something along those lines.