another transgender surprise.

Equally others can refer to you by any of those terms if they wish.

In which case I refer you back to the OP..

If we are to allow others to call us what they want, then deadnaming is not a crime in your opinion?

from Notanan
"Do you think people should be allowed to chose their gender?".
I'm interested in the factors that influence this choice. Mainly because the one trans person I know is the daughter of a friend. We knew her as a little girl, she wasn't butch at all. She/he is in her 30s now, has a beard, but still a very light feminine voice.
We haven't asked her why she decided to change.

As I have already said using a proper name that anyone finds unacceptable whatever the reason is abuse. If that person has said they no longer wish to be called Mr Y or Mrs X then that decision is to be respected. It is in no way similar to categorising someone as trans-gender or cis-gender, binary , non-binary or any other term.

Incidently people change their names for all sorts of reasons and they do find it very upsetting to be called a name they no longer accept and most of them would agree it is abuse.

The etymology of woman is really interesting. It doesn't mean not a man, or of a man, or anything like that. Originally, mann meant person. A wifmann was a female person, a wermann was a male person. Over time, wifmann changed to woman, wermann changed to man. So woman is not a misogynistic word from the patriarchy and it doesn't need to be changed to womyn, womxn or anything else. However, cis is completely redundant since it implies that the words men and women are not enough - they are for the vast majority of us and frankly I am insulted by the term cis.

There are a number of threads on Mumsnet which are worth reading if anyone is interested in learning more about transgender issues.

Trisher We are living at a time when more young people than ever seem to be really struggling.
I also remember teen years being really terrible. I was suicidal and I had multiple reasons I am not going to go into here.

I don't accept the so called studies because that is so easy people write studies....and who knows.....?

Perhaps as I said more acceptance all round of a person being a person is the better way.
Not shutting down discussion which is what you seem to be doing.....
you are saying its true see here it says so in black and white. but it is not so hard to write a study and convince people it is so.

If we are in the midst of such a huge number of people finding out they are trans then I am curious as to why?

I think people need time to find themselves. I know young people who are at risk , who have made suicide attempts, began to drink etc.......with enough support they came through it and they all had identity problems but they were not gender identity issues .

I am dubious about early signs of being in the wrong gender body because I have seen children grow up and be different to how they were as kids.

What about in 10 years time when these children are unhappy adults truly trapped in a wrong body? That is not even being considered is it?

pinkquartz I haven't said it isn't reasonable to ask "why" and one of the interesting concepts is that it is related to the amount of oestrogen currently found in our water supply which has led to changes in fish.It is something worth investigating but doesn't mean we should ignore the current situation. www.purewaterpeople.co.uk/blog/2014/07/oestrogen-in-tap-water/
Support is great but is important not to set restrictions on that support or to make it seem that one course of action is preferable to another.

Wouldn’t it be nice if we could reserve ‘taking offence’
for absolutely deliberate insulting disrespectful abusive offensive comments & opinions .
Not being up to speed with new & preferred terminologies should be accepted as just that rather than an affront or insult to another human being. It only takes a little bit of kindness patience & tolerance ?

Bridgit that's fine for most things and I would agree about the general terms but I do think that if you have changed your name (and people do it for all sorts of reasons, spousal abuse, paternal rejection as well as transgender) you should have the right to leave that name behind you and to find its use abusive.

Bridgeit I agree with you.
Most of us have hurtful things said to us - often or occasionally. But we don't take the offender to court about it.

ps btw there's a followup article about my OP :
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6912343/Transgender-activist-vows-sue-Mumsnet-founder-site-ignores-High-Court-order.html

Yes I agree if deliberately used to cause offence, but if no offence is intended then surely life is to short to make a big issue about something that is relatively harmless.

Thanks Fennel, I’m just going to read attachment

Oh dear life’s too short to take offence about some things mean while people are homeless , starving, persecuted.?

Oh my goodness I’ve just come back from a day out to find my post deleted - I wonder who reported it. It wasn’t a personal atrack on anyone but a statement of what I believe re this debate . Truly truly chilling - I wouldn’t mind if the person who reported me PMed me because I really would like to understand what was wrong with what I said - imo it was a statement about fundamental biology. Or they could debate it on here. I am not a cis woman. I am a woman and to me that means adult human female. I’m actually quite upset about the deletion because I really don’t understand what I did wrong - all my other deletions I have understood

Ah so reading the article the issue is not in fact "dead naming" but accusations about criminality, which apparently MN refused to take down.

maryeliza54 your post was gone when I posted at 10.48. I don't report posts anyway so sorry I cn't help you.

I’ve just remembered now what my post was specifically about - it was about the transgender issue and women’s sport, transgender women in women’s prisons and crimes committed by self id-ing women being classified as committed by women. All these are real issues - I don’t understand why it was reported.

I never for one minute thought it was you trisher you’re one of my favourite posters (even when you’re wtong?) because you are so honest and straightforward when you disagree

It wasn't me either, maryeliza. I can't remember even reading it, there have been so many good points on here I can't keep up.
Maybe because it drifted into court cases?

I read that post. There was nothing "personal" or non factually correct in it??

I really dont want to risk commenting on the particular case / person too much but that follow-up article seems missleading.

I read on MN that the claiment being banned preceeded the persons request for a posters details.

The article makes it sound like the claiment was banned BECAUSE of the case.

I can not personally confirm the timeline either way, but I read on MN that the banning came first in the timeline of events. I do not know how true that is

(I hope that is phrased in a "safe" way....legally. we clearly have to take care when discussing this case/person)

So back to generic right/wrong of "deadnaming"

Say my MIL insisted on continuously calling me MissMaidenname even though I took DHs name (she doesnt), thats nasty bullying, no question.

However: say my ex employer was asked for a reference and asked "are you aware of any serious professional missconduct carried out by notnan in this or a similar role" and the ex employer knew I had done something very serious, which made me ethically unsuitable for the new role I applied for..... BUT! The serious event happened when I used my maiden name!

Is my professional history wiped clean because of a name change? Does the ex employer have to let me get that new job knowing I have form for put people at risk for fear of "deadnaming" me?

Are peoples patterns of past behaviour never relevant?

(I have no serious misconduct charges by any name, all hypothetical)

Gosh I’ve peeped at this thread a couple of times and (a) I can’t believe there are over 220 posts and (b) I probably only understand about 20 of them! This is way over my head.
?
It’s a whole new world out there.
I didn’t even know such opinions existed.