Our NHS is being privatised

The subject of paying for hospital meals always makes me go aaaaaaaaggggggggghhhhhhhhhh. Apart from the point above re paying would lead to wanting more say, which would be inevitable so would arguments about it not been to their taste, vegetables over cooked etc. Can you imagine just this aspect, really? But there are actually far more serious points to make. Being in hospital is hardly ever a money saving experience for patients and their families - quite the reverse. What with travel costs, parking, buying extra treats etc - when I’ve had family members in hospital ( once it was dh and dd at the same time) it’s cost far more than I ever saved from not feeding them at home. For one thing, I was eating more convenience food myself or buying food at the hospital whilst I waited for them to come out of surgery or to see their consultant. In addition, there would have to be so many exemptions eg people admitted from care. Who would bill people? What would happen when they didn’t pay on time? Who would deal with complaints eg you charged me for lunch on a day I was nil by mouth. <sigh>

Gabriella Thank you for the info about the new contract.
I don’t have a problem about outsourcing cleaning or the provision of food in hospitals. I agree with you Maryeliza that there should be no charge for the reasons you state.

But outsourcing cleaning is quite different from outsourcing clinical procedures. It’s a question of ethos, governance and accountability.

Do you want a medical director of a Trust ultimately responsible for your care, or a company director?

All good points, Maryeliza. If only there was some way improve services commissioned via outsourcing. Not brilliant atm.

janeainsworth
I wasn't promoting the use of medical directors to be involved in direct procedures with patients, there are enough directors getting huge salaries as it is.
I meant that person's who are qualified (to a degree) to undertake minor procedures including excising moles, small wound sutures, procedures of that nature and bloods, weight management...I could go on forever.
The NHS is shockingly wasteful and so are many GPs who oversubscribe and don't encourage people to buy cheaper generic meds.
Privatising certain sectors within the NHS is a way to make sure that the core of the NHS services are not outsourced.
We already have ridiculous numbers of agency staff in almost every hospital department, from nurses to consultants to cleaners who are paid silly money (with a large portion going to the agency)
No doubt most work hard for it but nurses do far less than they ever used to...far less.
Reading some of these posts which cite 6 week waits to see a GP and ops put off time after time, something has to give and we need quick responsible solutions to a growing problem.
There are pros and cons for keeping the status quo and for the privatisation of certain services.
Unfortunately, we cannot make that decision but we shouldn't go down the route of scaremongering.

The NHS service was set up in the 1940s to be free for about 30 million people. It is unrealistic now to think that it can cope with a population of over 70 million, and increasing rapidly, with all the new expensive procedures available ( essential and cosmetic ) plus treating lots of foreign citizens without recouping charges from their native countries as well as many others who have never and probably never will contribute to its costs. Making parts of it private, especially the cosmetic side, would be a good idea in my opinion as well as a charge for missed appointments and misuse of A&E.

quiz the argument about charging for some things always gets countered by saying the cost of doing so would be prohibitive. I don't understand why other countries can charge non-nationals and we can't.

I don't think cosmetic surgery is covered by the NHS except in very extreme circumstances.

I think GPs should be strong enough to refuse to prescribe things which can easily be bought over the counter and that triage nurses should refuse treatment for people who are not in urgent need. Those two things would save the NHS money but they seem to only think about saving large amounts. We save money in our home because we don't spend the unnecessary small amounts, not by saving huge amounts.

I have an idea of a way to reduce one of my meds which is different on different days and plan to suggest it to my GP but not convinced they will get the point.

GabriellaG54
If the NHS hasn't the beds or particular resources needed for a patient then they use private facilities. What else should or could they do?

Why doesn't a hospital have enough beds? It's because this government has underfunded the NHS since 2010 that's why.

Two bid for a health contract NHS bid cost less money but a private company who bid more won the bid. It's all to do with selling off the NHS nothing to do with saving money. Some older people bed blocking can't be moved because this government cut funding on social care so there is nowhere for them to go.

Dr Bob Gill harsh truths about the NHS
m.youtube.com/watch?v=khP4O-PGDnI

qq please tell me that you don’t believe cosmetic surgery is available on the NHS ( unless there is a medical need of course which is quite right and proper).

grany unless its in the youtube clip (12 mins is too much to plough through) would you please give us evidence of this claim "Two bid for a health contract NHS bid cost less money but a private company who bid more won the bid." Thanks

There is absolutely no reason why we cannot fund health care for 70 million people. The reason that the NHS is underfunded is political/ideological, not economic. Ever since Thatcher was in power the tories have sought to 'shrink the state' and privatise public services. This is ideology, not economics.

As for economics, the idea that national finances run on the same lines as household budgets is entirely false. The nation does not have an 'income' limited by the amount of money they can recoup in tax, nor is it limited by anything else. It used to be limited by the amount of gold it held but 'the gold standard' was abolished in the early 1970s and since then the government has been free to issue as much money as it pleases. Taxation has an important role to play but its prime function is to prevent inflation caused by too much money circulating in the economy. A secondary function is to prevent inequalities caused by wealthy people acquiring yet more wealth, monpolising the money in the economy and not returning money to the economy through spending (and ultimately, taxation). But while ever resources are in plentiful supply and available for purchase there can be very little inflation.

(And please don't say Venezuela or Zimbabwe because their economic problems, while caused by an oversupply of money, have a very different basis. They are not mature democracies with a very long established central banking system. They are also rife with corruption, far in excess of any that might exist in the UK. Japan is a much better example of a stable country running a big deficit at no detriment to their economy)

It is the government, through the Bank of England, or through banks licensed to issue money, which issues money. That is why the government can spend vast amounts on quantitative easing and on projects like preparing for Brexit. Vast amounts which are not funded by tax revenue.

As far as public spending is concerned, tories don't like it because it ostensibly deprives private enterprise of profits. However, when you look at it logically there is no reason why it should do so because all public services' resources are supplied by private enterprise. Medicines, equipment, food, uniforms, railway engines, etc. etc. We have no public companies supplying resources. The only thing that private enterprise is denied is the opportunity to make a profit by supplying the actual service.

There is a strange feeling in existence that money spent by the government on public services disappears into a big black hole and is never seen again. This is absurd. The wages of public servants are spent in the economy on things supplied by private enterprise and, as I've already pointed out, the actual services themselves purchase everything they need from private enterprises. Most of the money the government issues eventually comes back to it by way of taxation. The only money that doesn't is that which is saved in this country or that which is sent off to tax havens to avoid being liable for UK taxation. The so called 'deficit' is really people's savings or money squirrelled off abroad.

As to the matter of 'waste' in the public sector, I'd defy anyone who has worked for a very large private company (and the NHS is huge) to tell me that there is not an iota of waste in their company. Large organisations are bound to have some endemic areas of waste.

If anyone is interested I suggest they read this explanation by Richard Murphy: www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2019/05/10/pretty-much-all-that-most-people-need-to-know-about-modern-monetary-theory/

MaizieD
Excellent post I can't really add anything because you have explained exactly the economics of this government. I totally agree with what you said the government could easily afford to fund our NHS properly. They giving instead tax cuts 100s of Billions to big corporations. This government is a disaster it's economic murder.

Stop the plans to dismantle our NHS.
you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/stop-the-plans-to-dismantle-our-nhs?source=facebook-share-button&time=1557886939&fbclid=IwAR2jIY-2ouaCGGAfQF2w9L14a7xj4xBUp4OkdOjU4jO2CytOsL1XGh80grk

"A parliamentary question from John Mann MP has revealed that the UK paid out £674 million to EU countries for their health costs last year , but received only £49 million in return

The huge discrepancy was revealed in a Department for Health response to the Bassenthwaite MP, notable figures include:

UK pays France £147,685,772 France pays U.K. £6,730.292

UK pays Germany £25,873,954 Germany pays U.K. £2,189,664

UK pays Italy £7,304,484 Italy pays U.K. £1,510,850

UK pays Poland £4,336,701 Poland pays U.K. £1,523,402

UK pays Spain £223,290,021 Spain pays U.K. £3,412,338

John Mann commented

" sorting this scandal out in itself would transform the NHS financial situation. This is a shambolic state of affairs and we are being plated for fools"

This was posted on Facebook.

Who posted it on Facebook?

We pay other European countries for health services provided by them to UK citizens. Large amounts go to places like Spain and France because they are popular retirement destinations for UK citizens. Elderly people who are more likely to use local health services.

If we are not recouping the costs of NHS services provided to non British EU citizens then it is the fault of the UK system, not the EU. This FB post is designed to inflame anti-EU emotion in people who don't stop to think about its implications.

1) Non British EU citizens in the UK tend to be young and healthy, so not so much in need of NHS services. The UK is not a popular retirement destination for them, we're not providing health services to the elderly in the same way that Spain and France are...
2) The UK doesn't have an efficient system for recouping the costs of services used by EU citizens. Other member states are far more effective at keeping track of non-national EU citizens in their countries.

I can't get upset about the figures posted, nor see them in any way as a case against the EU.

John Mann posted it, I got it from twitter (I am not on Facebook)

I assume as this was a “parliamentary question” it is a “matter on record”

Thanks, GG13

John Mann is clearly a Leaver MP?

MaizieD I actually agree with you in as much as our system needs a shake up. If other EU Countries are more efficient at re-claiming monies due we should be doing the same.

The plural of person is persons not person's. Sorry to interrupt your important thread to state this.

Someone queried apathy towards the privatisation of the NHS upthread.

A quick back of an envelope calculation says that the NHS got 69 posts in 69 hours while Jeremy Kyle had 107 posts in 28 hours.

Kinda shows where people's priorities currently lie.

There is a good reason why Farage is standing without a manifesto apart from Brexit. He is very pro privatisation, and probably in cohoots with Trump on the subject.

He knows full well that his supporters would not vote for him if that was clear in his (non existing) Manifesto !

Until you have lived in a country with Private Health system, you will never know how much your treatment costs- the figures are staggering, especially as one gets older. We have been made very aware of this as we have had to pay bills and get part refund later. Mind boggling.

And until you have live in a private system where your level of access to some Consultants and services depends on your level of insurance (which is very restricted if you have pre-exisiting conditions- as 'computer says NO') - you'll have no idea of how it is to be turned down for treatment because you have not got a higher level of private insurance- which you can't access because of pre-exisiting conditions. It awful

Each consecutive government pours millions into the NHS--------it's mismanaged !! Some auditors must be blind. How many ward managers do we need for starters ?

And until you have live in a private system where your level of access to some Consultants and services depends on your level of insurance

And in this country it depends where you live, jura.
Don’t let’s pretend that the NHS is perfect. If you lived in Stafford or Barrow-in-Furness a few years ago your access to even acceptable care might have been compromised.

Just seen Daily Mail front page and Daily Express both with stories of GPS leaving and all to blame on people getting older can't cope with aging population, actually life expectancy is going down in this country, these 'newspapers' have to scapegoat. Do people reading these 'newspapers' actually believe their lies and propaganda? They don't seem to know the Tories are underfunding the NHS have been since 2010 to break it up sell it off to bring in private companies and insurance based system. A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves. This governments plans need stopping.